There will be more VCM hybrid prime lenses, but not anytime soon

Since when is a digital correction based on a sensor with a lower resolution than the lens better than a correction by the lens?
Have you seen the optical correction of the EF 17-40/4L? Compare that lens on the 5DsR to the digitally corrected corner of the RF 14-35/4L on a sensor with similar resolution (R5), and tell me which is more effective? Since the former is 'corrected by the lens', probably you like the top image better.

Screenshot 2024-10-31 at 12.05.52 PM.pngScreenshot 2024-10-31 at 12.05.56 PM.png

I hear you saying NO FAIR, you can't compare a cheap, old lens to a fancy new lens costing 2x. Ok, let's compare the much newer and similarly-priced EF 16-35/4 on the 5DsR to the RF 14-35/4 on the R5.

Screenshot 2024-10-31 at 12.11.53 PM.pngScreenshot 2024-10-31 at 12.11.55 PM.png

Nope, the digitally corrected corners are still sharper. Still NO FAIR you say, you can't compare different cameras. Ok, let's compare the more expensive and optically corrected RF 15-35/2.8 on the R5 with the digitally corrected RF 14-35/4 on the R5:

Screenshot 2024-10-31 at 12.15.25 PM.pngScreenshot 2024-10-31 at 12.15.27 PM.png

Not really seeing much difference there, are you? If anything, the digitally corrected 14-35/4 still looks a little bit better. As I've already mentioned, when I empirically tested the RF 14-35/4 against the EF 11-24/4 at 14mm on the EOS R, the digitally-corrected corners of the 14-35/4 were as good as the corners of the much more expensive 11-24/4 at a focal length where distortion correction is not even needed.

I really don't get why people have this impression that optical correction is the ideal. There's no free lunch. As I said, the corners have to be stretched no matter what, making a wide angle lens rectilinear requires it, else the lenses would all be partial fisheyes.

The empirical data are all consistent with digital correction being at least as good as optical correction. It's unfortunate that so many people in this world prefer to believe their preconceived opinions instead of facts and data, and when challenged on it and asked to provide facts or data to support their opinion, they just repeat their opinion and append something like, "How can I be wrong when I know I'm right?"

Meanwhile, I'll keep waiting for someone to actually demonstrate that digital correction is inherently worse. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for it, and sadly people will go on ignoring reality when it contradicts their opinion. I'd rather they do it on this particular issue than on some other issues that are going to become very, very relevant in five days here in the US.
 
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The VCM is not perfect since it is trying to target 2 segments and had to make some compromise, and who know after milking the VCM for hybrid shooters.... they will not launch a perfect RF 24/35 F1.2L with BR, less than 1% distortion and cost more?
 
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So where does that leave Sigma? And will the R3-2 become a tiny fully professional APS-C body? (I don't believe that either.) The constant for the current APS-C RF bodies is that they are relatively small, something I very much like.
As a third party lens manufacturer. Just because Sigma was approved certain lenses doesn't mean Canon is not looking to replace them with better quality glass.
 
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The VCM is not perfect since it is trying to target 2 segments and had to make some compromise, and who know after milking the VCM for hybrid shooters.... they will not launch a perfect RF 24/35 F1.2L with BR, less than 1% distortion and cost more?
Canon will do what makes economic sense to them, so milking the hybrid market with VCM first (many potential buyers) and coming afterwards with a better (and faster?) lens at a higher price (most likely), weight and dimension (and fewer buyers) might make sense to them. With the RF 85/1.2 L (BR optics) they have shown that they can produce excellent glass for photographers.
 
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A 24/1.4 is gathering more light than an 20/1.4 for astro photography as the absolute opening is larger and that's what counts for astro. Well, the difference isn't big in such a case and other factors like 'coma', vignette and chroma would be more important. But as an 'astro' shooter I will - most likely - stay away from this VCM lenses as they seems not to offer the best quality which Canon lenses can offer without the VCM limitations.
How does the AF motor choice (VCM) impact the optical performance?
Although the 24/1.4 would have a bigger entrance pupil vs 20/1.4, astro depends on what is the field of view that you are wanting to shoot.
Deep sky then okay.
Wide angle astro landscape will either use a single wide frame to include more sky and foreground. If narrower (eg 24mm) then stitching will be required which adds complexity with software joining the dots. A single frame will be optically better than a stitched image in software.

I would prefer a 20mm and/or 14mm for my use cases. Dan Zafra/John Rutter are of a similar mind (but much better than me!)

That said, the master (IMHO) is Trevor Dobson using 35mm, 50mm and even 85mm for wide angle astro landscapes stitching up to 80 panels.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/trevor_dobson_inefekt69/
 
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Looking at the specs of the VCM lineup, a RF 20mm F1.4 would now be an immediate preorder for me for astro and nightscapes or cities at night time in general. Of course, 16mm F1.4 would be even nicer but the price would scare me. Comparing prices of Sony/ Sigma 14mm F1.4:1.8 and their 20mm offerings, I’d imagine Canon will go with a similar pricing scheme. So I’ll probably use a 20mm and in case it has to be wider I’ll do a pano
I would be happy if Canon matches the pricing of the Sony / Sigma 14mm options. Hopes and dreams aside, any RF14mm with aperture under f2.8 is likely to be more expensive albeit much better optically than the EF14/2.8.

I think that the Sigma EF20/1.4 is discontinued now though :-(
 
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I think an 85mm f1.4 VCM is an obvious choice. So is a 21mm f1.4 and maybe a 16mm f1.4. If they fitted rear slot filter adapters (like from the EF to R drop in adapter) it would be an amazing lens for landscape photographers.
I could see wide primes of f1.4 being useful for astro landscape but generally landscaper prefer to shoot ~f9 for max depth of field and sharpness without diffraction. If there is close foreground subject then focus stacking a couple of shots helps the front to back dof.

Rear filter slot would be an interesting choice for a single ND or CPL using the R mount adaptor's drop in options.
For seascape and waterfalls, I tend to stack ND and CPL for long exposures so a single slot wouldn't help there.
Similarly for architecture with cloudy skies using 10 stop ND (or higher) as the subjects aren't moving or blurring people movements making them "disappear".
I wouldn't generally wouldn't use ND for landscape due to moving elements unless I was stacking sky and ground separately.

Hard to go past the RF14-35/4 as a landscape/seascape lens with 77mm front filter thread
 
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This is also my perception, but I'd wish for a real optical expert to tell us what the facts are. A "perception" is no fact.
The opinions expressed by most forum members rely on hearsay or subjectivity. This, of course, includes me. I do need a proof I'm either right or wrong.
Presently, given the choice between a digitally and an optically corrected lens, I'd go for the optically corrected one.
Optically corrected lenses usually have to make sacrifice in other aspects (CA, coma, etc.) given the same cost, so you end up correcting those digitally. RF lenses rely on digital correction for distortion, but they can optimize other aspects. The end result is that RF lenses usually have same output quality (if not higher) than their EF predecessors after both optical and digital correction. A prime example is RF 10 20 vs EF 11 24.
 
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[...]
Meanwhile, I'll keep waiting for someone to actually demonstrate that digital correction is inherently worse.
[...]
Just my opinion: I like to have the best data from the sensor itself before I go into "data recovery" procedures.
So I have chosen the EF 16-35 4 over the f/4 counterpart of the RF series which has low geometric distortion. It is "good enough" in the sharpness department on 24 MPix cameras including older ones like 5D mark i (13 MPix) which I will maybe use for timelapses (with loooow shutter speeds). But this is my use case.

Your comparisons show that high megapixel cameras in the 50ish MPix region + correction software do a good job - with refined software - to correct the strong geometric distortions of the newer lenses.

In the end it might be a good idea to optimize a lens for 8 out of 10 parameters and optimize the remaining 2 params afterwards to increase overall quality at reasonable weight, size and cost.
 
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Just my opinion: I like to have the best data from the sensor itself before I go into "data recovery" procedures.
So I have chosen the EF 16-35 4 over the f/4 counterpart of the RF series which has low geometric distortion. It is "good enough" in the sharpness department on 24 MPix cameras including older ones like 5D mark i (13 MPix) which I will maybe use for timelapses (with loooow shutter speeds). But this is my use case.
Correct me if I am wrong but the RF14-35/4 has similar performance from 16mm as the EF version but has the added benefit of the extra 2mm on the wide end and maintained the 77mm filter thread. 2 big pluses for it... just waiting for (hopefully) a black Friday discount and I will pull out the wallet :)
 
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Correct me if I am wrong but the RF14-35/4 has similar performance from 16mm as the EF version but has the added benefit of the extra 2mm on the wide end and maintained the 77mm filter thread. 2 big pluses for it... just waiting for (hopefully) a black Friday discount and I will pull out the wallet :)
RF with correction is a little bit better than EF without correction - so yes: Final image quality is very close.
→ 16 is wide enough for me who thinks about 100mm as "standard lens"
→ And the EF : RF was 950 : 1500 € at the time I made the decision.
→ Finally: it is not easy to adapt the RF on the EOS 5D mark i ;-)
 
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as an 'astro' shooter I will - most likely - stay away from this VCM lenses as they seems not to offer the best quality which Canon lenses can offer without the VCM limitations
I know coma is a special concern for astro (I've never shot any myself though would like to). I don't know if the VCM have good coma. But the MTFs from the newly-announced VCM are EXTREMELY good, I think. What are the other concerns you have for image quality that the VCM wouldn't be as good as some other Canons?
 
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What are the other concerns you have for image quality that the VCM wouldn't be as good as some other Canons?
I think some people just want to find an excuse to not buy a lens that would more than meet their imaging needs but doesn’t fit their budget.

Like how I would have bought a Ferrari, but my coffee mug is mauve and they don’t sell a Ferrari in that color.
 
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A 24/1.4 is gathering more light than an 20/1.4 for astro photography as the absolute opening is larger and that's what counts for astro.
Sounds interesting and you're probably right. I have absolutely no clue about it and can't explain to myself why the 24mm is gathering more light despite the F-number being the same.
Well, the difference isn't big in such a case and other factors like 'coma', vignette and chroma would be more important.
If it is only a subtle difference I wouldn't mind at all. I´m not shooting professionally and I also don´t commit to astro in terms of planning, traveling, chasing comets etc. so I do think I should be fine. I follow some astro photographers from NZ on insta and they do amazing panos and such as 12-20 pic panos. I`ll probably never take such pics, but I´d like to take pics of the Milky Way again in NZ next year (first time was in 2019) and therefore I´d wish for 20mm. A three-four pic pano should be in the books, therefore 20mm will sufficient enough.
But as an 'astro' shooter I will - most likely - stay away from this VCM lenses as they seems not to offer the best quality which Canon lenses can offer without the VCM limitations.
What limitations does the VCM have that makes you want to stay away from these lenses?
 
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I would be happy if Canon matches the pricing of the Sony / Sigma 14mm options. Hopes and dreams aside, any RF14mm with aperture under f2.8 is likely to be more expensive albeit much better optically than the EF14/2.8.
The price point of a possible RF 14mm F2.0 (or lower) would be waaaaay out of my league, therefore I´m not even hoping for one.

A RF 20mm might be more affordable. I´d also take a RF 20mm F1.8 with the form factor of the 24mm/ 35mm (if your reading this Canon reps: please with gear-type STM!). Those lenses offer a good value and the IQ is good enough for prints of 70x50 cm.
I think that the Sigma EF20/1.4 is discontinued now though :-(
(Sadly), it was discontinued. I took this lens with me to NZ in 2019 for night sky photography. I loved the F1.4 but I hated the weight. Especially because I carried it around only for this one particular reason. One can get a used copy for a reasonable price in Germany. If there isn't a better option available next summer, I'll just get it again and sell it after the trip.

Since I have the magnificent RF 14-35mm F4 L (which am I definitely gonna keep forever) I´m not in need of 14mm and I´d only like a wide angle option with more light gathering ability.
 
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