The Canon EOS R5 C has been rejected for Netflix Certification

#61
WhatDoesMStandsFor said:
So yeah, in most cases Netflix is involved from the beginning, but there are cases in which they get involved in a later stage, and this avoids extra costs in reshooting.
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I have no problem when they're involved from the start and are the producer. That's totally their choice then, it's the lunacy the happens when that's not the case that burns me. You gave a perfect example. Making a production do a new cut to meet some acquisition rule, way after the fact? Seriously? What would have Netflix done if most of it wasn't shot on a camera they approved of? I guess they would have had no choice but to not run it as a Netflix original, unless they only follow their own rules when it's convenient for them. This is the slippery slope that's been created.
 
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#62
adrian_bacon said:
What would have Netflix done if most of it wasn't shot on a camera they approved of? I guess they would have had no choice but to not run it as a Netflix original, unless they only follow their own rules when it's convenient for them.
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That's exactly what would happen: if they could not meet the requirements and wanted that content so bad, they would've licensed only. If they could not meet the requirements and it was something deemed not wort it, Netflix would've said 'thank you, next' and be on their way. There's simple too much content out there and there's times that they simple don't care at all.

Also, they pay a somewhat considerable amount of money for the content to be a Netflix original, so... there's that as well.
 
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#64
Thought.. could it be because it the R5C? can't do 4K raw? Are all the other camera's on the list capable of 4K Raw specifically? That would explain why only three 4k black magic cameras are on the list?

It could also be something as simple as the native battery life sucks with NPH batteries or that the timecode in/out port on the side is the smaller non-standard DIN variety. Either of those issues would explain why canon has no interest in 'fixing it'.

Or super optimistic tin foil hat theory - it's the battery life specifically and canon has a firmware coming to address that they haven't announced yet.
 
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#66
Scenes said:
Thought.. could it be because it the R5C? can't do 4K raw? Are all the other camera's on the list capable of 4K Raw specifically? That would explain why only three 4k black magic cameras are on the list?

It could also be something as simple as the native battery life sucks with NPH batteries or that the timecode in/out port on the side is the smaller non-standard DIN variety. Either of those issues would explain why canon has no interest in 'fixing it'.

Or super optimistic tin foil hat theory - it's the battery life specifically and canon has a firmware coming to address that they haven't announced yet.
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Doubt it.

The TC input being non-standard is not an issue, as the FX3 don't even have a TC input and does it through USB, and the Panasonic S1H also uses a super janky fix to have TC. Battery life is not an issue as well because there's workarounds, since you could power it up through a V-mount battery or power bank if you need the extra power.

And as far as resolution goes, we have cameras capable of recording 8K (V-Raptor, Monstro and VENICE 2) and 6K (Komodo, VENICE and C500 Mk II) in that list. The thing with Blackmagic is that none of the Pocket Cinema Cameras have a TC input, and that's the main reason they are not certified.

The URSA 12K isn't certified, which I've theorize could be the same reason why the R5 C was rejected as well - the signal on the black levels is simply too noise, which affects the dynamic range on the camera and make it unable to work on HDR productions. This has been a trend that is being discussed right now, with Fuji launching the XH2 with 8K by compromising the dynamic range and rolling shutter of the XH2S just for the sake of slappping that 8K logo on the camera. It could be something as simple as Canon wanted to slap that 8K logo on a Cinema EOS camera to reach the market fast, decided to improve on the R5 sensor but it wasn't enough for dynamic range, Netflix rejected and they decided to step back because there's nothing they could do about it.
 
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#67
dolina said:
Would not be surprised if the R5 C not being certified to be used with Netflix productions has more to do with Canon's market segmentation or hardware limitations.
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I really doubt it, because they went far and beyond to include that TC terminal on the camera, and prioritize a TC input on the C70 as well just to get that certification. Seems like they missed the point on other stuff, really.
 
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#69
It makes no sense to me a sports DSLR would have more dynamic range than a cinema camera.

I can’t 100% say it doesn’t, but just because someone hasn’t compared those models of cameras directly doesn’t mean you can’t anticipate what the result would be.

But we’re kinda going around in circles, so I wish you well and hope you find what your looking for.
 
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#70
Scenes said:
Why would the R3 have significant more dynamic range in video than stills than the R5?
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Because video typically uses a 12 bit ADC and stills use a 14 bit ADC (or more depending on the camera).

EDIT: misread your question... while it's true stills typically uses a higher bit depth ADC, video is usually pretty significantly downscaled from a higher resolution, and that has the effect of increasing the measured dynamic range due to how it's measured. For example, capturing video at 8K and output at 8K will have one measured DR number, taking that same 8K source and downscaling it to 4K, then measuring the DR again usually results in a different DR, then again, taking that same 8K source and downscaling it to 2K will give yet another DR number. The more oversampled the picture is, the higher the measured DR tends to be due to the oversampling reducing the noise levels when scaled down. There are a number of things that can affect this, but that's the general gist.
 
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#72
adrian_bacon said:
Because video typically uses a 12 bit ADC and stills use a 14 bit ADC (or more depending on the camera).

EDIT: misread your question... while it's true stills typically uses a higher bit depth ADC, video is usually pretty significantly downscaled from a higher resolution, and that has the effect of increasing the measured dynamic range due to how it's measured. For example, capturing video at 8K and output at 8K will have one measured DR number, taking that same 8K source and downscaling it to 4K, then measuring the DR again usually results in a different DR, then again, taking that same 8K source and downscaling it to 2K will give yet another DR number. The more oversampled the picture is, the higher the measured DR tends to be due to the oversampling reducing the noise levels when scaled down. There are a number of things that can affect this, but that's the general gist.
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Also, the video DR is measured in a different way than stills DR, so you can't 1:1 compare those numbers. I get the impression that "video people" don't care as much about "processing" being fake/bad/cheap, they just want the promised 18 stops of DR in the resulting video file, even if the raw 1:1 sensor readout can't do that without noise reduction and downsampling.
 
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#73
The whole 8K hype seems so incredibly overblown to me. Netflix is a streaming service, and with todays TV's you can barely notice a difference between 4K and 1080, let alone 4K vs 8K. I have an 85 inch 4K tv in my living room and recent 1080 content looks very good just with the built in upscaler.

On my smaller 55 inch tv, you literally can't tell the resolution apart from a normal viewing distance. I doubt many people even have room to fit a TV larger than 75-85 in their apartments, so to me 8K seems reduntant for tv productions.

And yes, I'm aware that it gives you flexibility in framing later on, but still... I think most pros will always frame their shots during the takes, rather then go wide and say "we'll figure it out later".
 
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#74
Many may argue "What's the point?" but that question has been asked for decades for any tech.

I expect 8K resolution streaming to start entering the mainstream by 2026. 8K blu-ray is doubtful.

I know many will argue against this so as a hedge here is a timeline of resolution/media

- 2016: 4K blu-ray & Netflix's international expansion
- 2006: 2K blu-ray
- 1996: DVD video (720 × 480 pixels (D-1 resolution, 4:3 or 16:9))

When replacing displays it should be scheduled when format gets released and be kept as early as the next tech bump.

From a business point of view manufacturers they'd saturate the market of 4K TVs with good margins by a decade. So they need you to replace it.
 
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#76
LoL my R5 (not sure about the R5C because I canceled my order and bought the R7 as a B cam) natively sends a C-LOG2 signal (and NOTHNG ELSE) out over HDMI. Which means anyone with a four hundred dollar Ninja V (at 12 bit 5k) or a five hundred dollar Ninja V+ (at 12 bit 5k or 10 bit 8k) can record C-LOG2 footage into the industry standard ProRes or ProRes Raw file and easily meet Netfleas' C-LOG2 requirement. I would imagine the same goes for the IBIS-stripped R5C. So the only thing preventing the R5 from being Netfleas' approved is the floating sensor, which didn't stop Netfleas from approving the less capable & small sensor Panasonic. I guess Netfleas' bizarre personal employee' bias against Dave Chappelle also translates into personal employeee' bias against camera brands? Because while the Panasonic is great little camera, it's not Netfleas certified for resolutions above 4k (yucky line skipping is Panasonic's way of achieving 6k), and therefore there is no other explanation for why it would be Netfleas-approved while the R5 is not. The rumor for why the R5 wasn't approved was because it has a floating sensor (IBIS), but guess what, so does the Panasonic. Netfleas could easily have just limited the R5's use to having IBIS disabled, like they limited the Panasonic's use to 4k resolution. If overheating and recording limits are an issue for Netfleas, they could have limited the R5 to 4k (like they did with the Panasonic) or wait for it... approve the R5 when using the Atomos recorders. Some will say that the Ninjas and Shoguns are extra accessories that shouldn't be considered, but that sounds like an elitist argument. If Netfleas can make an exception for Panasonic's line skipping above 4k and typical average quality in body audio audio amp (as compared to cinema cams), surely they can make the R5 Netfleas approved when used with a Ninja V or better external recorder, and simply specify required file formats (like they do for every other camera).
 
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#77
Scenes said:
It can’t be lack of CLOG 2 because the shooting specs for the C70 specify approved footage settings of CLOG 2 or CLOG 3. It wouldn’t have effected my decision to get an R5C either way but would be nice to think a firmware update could fix it.

Maybe it’s as simple as the R5C doesn’t have built in ND?

Netflix approved C70 settings:
3840 x 2160 YCC422 10 bit
XF-AVC (Long GOP is not an approved compression scheme)
Canon Log 2 : C.Gamut
Canon Log 3 : C.Gamut

View attachment 205589
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The Panasonic S1H doesn't have ND. So no.
 
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#78
koenkooi said:
Also, the video DR is measured in a different way than stills DR, so you can't 1:1 compare those numbers. I get the impression that "video people" don't care as much about "processing" being fake/bad/cheap, they just want the promised 18 stops of DR in the resulting video file, even if the raw 1:1 sensor readout can't do that without noise reduction and downsampling.
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True. Also, how it's downsampled can affect that as well. If you pixel bin, you'll get a different number than if you do an actual interpolated rescale using an interpolation algorithm like Catmull-Rom. A lot of different things can affect what the numbers come out to.
 
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#79
R5R7 said:
LoL my R5 (not sure about the R5C because I canceled my order and bought the R7 as a B cam) natively sends a C-LOG2 signal (and NOTHNG ELSE) out over HDMI. Which means anyone with a four hundred dollar Ninja V (at 12 bit 5k) or a five hundred dollar Ninja V+ (at 12 bit 5k or 10 bit 8k) can record C-LOG2 footage into the industry standard ProRes or ProRes Raw file and easily meet Netfleas' C-LOG2 requirement. I would imagine the same goes for the IBIS-stripped R5C. So the only thing preventing the R5 from being Netfleas' approved is the floating sensor, which didn't stop Netfleas from approving the less capable & small sensor Panasonic. I guess Netfleas' bizarre personal employee' bias against Dave Chappelle also translates into personal employeee' bias against camera brands? Because while the Panasonic is great little camera, it's not Netfleas certified for resolutions above 4k (yucky line skipping is Panasonic's way of achieving 6k), and therefore there is no other explanation for why it would be Netfleas-approved while the R5 is not. The rumor for why the R5 wasn't approved was because it has a floating sensor (IBIS), but guess what, so does the Panasonic. Netfleas could easily have just limited the R5's use to having IBIS disabled, like they limited the Panasonic's use to 4k resolution. If overheating and recording limits are an issue for Netfleas, they could have limited the R5 to 4k (like they did with the Panasonic) or wait for it... approve the R5 when using the Atomos recorders. Some will say that the Ninjas and Shoguns are extra accessories that shouldn't be considered, but that sounds like an elitist argument. If Netfleas can make an exception for Panasonic's line skipping above 4k and typical average quality in body audio audio amp (as compared to cinema cams), surely they can make the R5 Netfleas approved when used with a Ninja V or better external recorder, and simply specify required file formats (like they do for every other camera).
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Why do you keep spelling their name like that?
 
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