The Canon Cinema C80 is coming this week

#106
EOS 4 Life said:
It has LT as well.
Click to expand...
Not according to Canon Europe.

Canon EOS R1 Camera Specifications

Experience the power of EOS R1 Full Frame Mirrorless Camera. Unparalleled autofocus capabilities, perfect for capturing action shots and sport competitions.
www.canon-europe.com www.canon-europe.com
Canon R1 CRM:
6K RAW (59.97p): Approx. 2600 Mbps
6K RAW (29.97p): Approx. 2000 Mbps
6K RAW (25p): Approx. 1670 Mbps
6K RAW (50p/24p/23.98p): Approx. 1600 Mbps
6K Light RAW (59.97p): Approx. 1800 Mbps
6K Light RAW (50p): Approx. 1500 Mbps
6K Light RAW (29.97p): Approx. 900 Mbps --> this is raw light (compare it to the C400 ST)
6K Light RAW (25p): Approx. 750 Mbps
6K Light RAW (24p/23.98p): Approx. 720 Mbp

For C400
12-bit Cinema RAW Light LT:
FF / 6000 x 3164 / 50P [1160 Mbps]
FF / 6000 x 3164 / 25P [576 Mbps] --> This is cinema raw light LT
S35 / 4368 x 2304 / 50P [611 Mbps]
S35 / 4368 x 2304 / 25P [306 Mbps]
S16 / 2184 x 1152 / 50P [154 Mbps]
S16 / 2184 x 1152 / 25P [77 Mbps]

12-bit Cinema RAW Light ST:
FF / 6000 x 3164 / 50P [1780 Mbps]
FF / 6000 x 3164 / 25P [886 Mbps] --> This is cinema raw light Standard
S35 / 4368 x 2304 / 50P [939 Mbps]
S35 / 4368 x 2304 / 25P [470 Mbps]
S16 / 2184 x 1152 / 50P [236 Mbps]
S16 / 2184 x 1152 / 25P [118 Mbps]

12-bit Cinema RAW Light HQ:
FF / 6000 x 3164 / 25P [1800 Mbps]
S35 / 4368 x 2304 / 50P [1910 Mbps]
S35 / 4368 x 2304 / 25P [954 Mbps]
S16 / 2184 x 1152 / 50P [479 Mbps]
S16 / 2184 x 1152 / 25P [240 Mbps]
-----

For Comparison
Canon R1, 6K Light RAW (29.97p): Approx. 900 Mbps
Canon C80, 12-bit Cinema RAW Light LT: FF / 6000 x 3164 / 25P [576 Mbps]
Canon R5, 8k Raw (Light) (29.97p/25.00p): Approx. 1700 Mbps
Canon R5 II, 8K RAW Light (29.97p): Approx. 1670 Mbps
 
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#110
utisz1 said:
Its a stacked sensor, with three gain stages and no DGO. C70 has way more DR, but also more noise than C80.
Click to expand...

Speculation is a bad substitute for observation.

Let's see this again.

youtu.be

Canon C80 - The C400 sensor in the C70 body design!

Order now at ProAV: https://proav.co.uk/canon-eos-c80Canon's new C80 updates the small compact design of the C70, while adding the fantastic 6K Full Frame B...
youtu.be youtu.be
 
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#111
Besisika said:
Not according to Canon Europe.

Canon EOS R1 Camera Specifications

Experience the power of EOS R1 Full Frame Mirrorless Camera. Unparalleled autofocus capabilities, perfect for capturing action shots and sport competitions.
www.canon-europe.com www.canon-europe.com
Canon R1 CRM:
6K RAW (59.97p): Approx. 2600 Mbps
6K RAW (29.97p): Approx. 2000 Mbps
6K RAW (25p): Approx. 1670 Mbps
6K RAW (50p/24p/23.98p): Approx. 1600 Mbps
6K Light RAW (59.97p): Approx. 1800 Mbps
6K Light RAW (50p): Approx. 1500 Mbps
6K Light RAW (29.97p): Approx. 900 Mbps --> this is raw light (compare it to the C400 ST)
6K Light RAW (25p): Approx. 750 Mbps
6K Light RAW (24p/23.98p): Approx. 720 Mbp

For C400
12-bit Cinema RAW Light LT:
FF / 6000 x 3164 / 50P [1160 Mbps]
FF / 6000 x 3164 / 25P [576 Mbps] --> This is cinema raw light LT
S35 / 4368 x 2304 / 50P [611 Mbps]
S35 / 4368 x 2304 / 25P [306 Mbps]
S16 / 2184 x 1152 / 50P [154 Mbps]
S16 / 2184 x 1152 / 25P [77 Mbps]

12-bit Cinema RAW Light ST:
FF / 6000 x 3164 / 50P [1780 Mbps]
FF / 6000 x 3164 / 25P [886 Mbps] --> This is cinema raw light Standard
S35 / 4368 x 2304 / 50P [939 Mbps]
S35 / 4368 x 2304 / 25P [470 Mbps]
S16 / 2184 x 1152 / 50P [236 Mbps]
S16 / 2184 x 1152 / 25P [118 Mbps]

12-bit Cinema RAW Light HQ:
FF / 6000 x 3164 / 25P [1800 Mbps]
S35 / 4368 x 2304 / 50P [1910 Mbps]
S35 / 4368 x 2304 / 25P [954 Mbps]
S16 / 2184 x 1152 / 50P [479 Mbps]
S16 / 2184 x 1152 / 25P [240 Mbps]
-----

For Comparison
Canon R1, 6K Light RAW (29.97p): Approx. 900 Mbps
Canon C80, 12-bit Cinema RAW Light LT: FF / 6000 x 3164 / 25P [576 Mbps]
Canon R5, 8k Raw (Light) (29.97p/25.00p): Approx. 1700 Mbps
Canon R5 II, 8K RAW Light (29.97p): Approx. 1670 Mbps
Click to expand...
My mistake but Canon RAW and Cinema RAW Light are different.
Canon RAW Light shows up as Canon RAW LT in the menu.
Cinema RAW Light is much smaller as you have shown.
There is no such thing as Cinema RAW only Cinema RAW Light.
 
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#114
Omn said:
Interesting....

R1 specs document lists RAW naming as "Standard RAW and "Light RAW" which is clearly not the same as RAW Light HQ, ST and LT and "Standard" is in size close to HQ and "Light" to ST.

Click to expand...
If you see RAW (be it standard, light or heavy!) on ANY still photo or cinema camera, it is LOSSY COMPRESSED footage and NOT truly MATHEMATICALLY LOSSLESS! There will ALWAYS be some data decimation on some colour channel or luminance channel OR via XY pixel coordinate sampling trickery. ONLY IF the method says UNCOMPRESSED FULL RAW or RLE (Run Length Encode) or LZW (ZIP file) or FRC (Lossless Fractal Compressor) is it truly RAW footage! Most manufacturers will NOW ADMIT that their "Raw" imagery is "Visually Lossless" rather than TRULY lossless video.

There IS a difference in overall video quality between TRULY RAW LOSSLESS versus 2:1, 3:1, 4:1 or 5:1 RAW file formats. All you have to do is look at the fuzzy edges of objects and look at how SOFT the overall image is. It's noticeably there and SOME OF US REALLY SEE those issues! For others, Lossy MP4 compression looks good enough to them for recording and editing purposes!

I prefer to work in Fully Uncompressed RAW DCI-4K (4096 by 2160) and DCI-8K (8192 by 4320) resolutions, so I use a REALLY BIG drive array to support that sort of bandwidth. If you have full raw imagery, video layer compositing, VFX, colour grading and other common video editing and production tasks are so much easier and look so much better in the final MP4 lossy compressed timeline export of your edited master video!

Hopefully more and more manufacturers offer TRULY FULL UNCOMPRESSED RAW file record options even in their lower end cameras as the image quality is so pristine in that format. There IS a difference!

V
 
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#115
HarryFilm said:
If you see RAW (be it standard, light or heavy!) on ANY still photo or cinema camera, it is LOSSY COMPRESSED footage and NOT truly MATHEMATICALLY LOSSLESS!
Click to expand...

ARRIRAW is uncompressed and ARRI and Codex have HDE lossless compressed 2:1.

Better stills cameras have uncompressed RAW option for photography.

HarryFilm said:
Hopefully more and more manufacturers offer TRULY FULL UNCOMPRESSED RAW file record options even in their lower end cameras as the image quality is so pristine in that format. There IS a difference!
Click to expand...

Unlikely because a waste of storage and media management for invisible difference.

3:1 is a great balance and visually lossless and even this is overkill above 6K.
 
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#116
Omn said:
ARRIRAW is uncompressed and ARRI and Codex have HDE lossless compressed 2:1.

Better stills cameras have uncompressed RAW option for photography.



Unlikely because a waste of storage and media management for invisible difference.

3:1 is a great balance and visually lossless and even this is overkill above 6K.
Click to expand...
Yup! I indeed forgot about Arri having their RLE and modded-LZW version of RAW that scans every other green, read and blue pixel (i.e. CDE is optimized for conforming to the 2D-XY position of specific photosites in a Bayer pattern sensor!) --- I do remember that on a more typical basis, we would get around 1.5 to 1.75:1 compression ratio of the image due to our imagery have high levels of detail in the background AND because we always uses the sharpest long lenses we could find and REDUCED the use of Bokeh (i.e. foreground is sharp and background is soft!) so that EVERYTHING was sharp since we are an industrial systems filmmaker and typically want EVERYTHING to be high-detailed in the frame.

For the smaller/cheaper cameras, with modern 20 TB hard drives going for $500 USD, it's a no brainer to record to FULL RAW and simply use a big RAM buffer for your timeline so that editing is reasonably quick. The image sharpness and colour quality is so good with RAW that you might as well be doing proper HIGH-END ARCHIVE QUALITY IMAGERY that is future proof and can be rescaled much easier once 64K pixel resolution video format (i.e. a future 65,536 x 34,560 pixels) comes out sometime around 2035! You can scale-up and resell your footage so much easier because you recorded in FULL RAW in the first place!

V
 
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#117
HarryFilm said:
Yup! I indeed forgot about Arri having their RLE and modded-LZW version of RAW that scans every other green, read and blue pixel
Click to expand...

Doesn't seem right.

Source ?

HarryFilm said:
For the smaller/cheaper cameras, with modern 20 TB hard drives going for $500 USD, it's a no brainer to record to FULL RAW and simply use a big RAM buffer for your timeline so that editing is reasonably quick.
Click to expand...

It makes little sense to shoot motion imagery in uncompressed RAW in high resolutions and it makes zero sense investing millions to build cameras with this option to be sold to a handful of fanatics willing to squander and pamper gigabyte(s) per second.

"Cheaper" and uncompressed RAW are not in the same category.

HarryFilm said:
The image sharpness and colour quality is so good with RAW that you might as well be doing proper HIGH-END ARCHIVE QUALITY IMAGERY
Click to expand...

No need.
3:1 RAW is indistinguishable from uncompressed RAW in motion.

HarryFilm said:
that is future proof and can be rescaled much easier once 64K pixel resolution video format (i.e. a future 65,536 x 34,560 pixels) comes out sometime around 2035! You can scale-up and resell your footage so much easier because you recorded in FULL RAW in the first place!
Click to expand...

Fantasy land.
 
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#118
Omn said:
Doesn't seem right.

Source ?



It makes little sense to shoot motion imagery in uncompressed RAW in high resolutions and it makes zero sense investing millions to build cameras with this option to be sold to a handful of fanatics willing to squander and pamper gigabyte(s) per second.

"Cheaper" and uncompressed RAW are not in the same category.



No need.
3:1 RAW is indistinguishable from uncompressed RAW in motion.



Fantasy land.
Click to expand...
I actually confirmed that from some of the actual U.S., German and Japanese engineers at NAB (National Association of Broadcasters) convention BEFORE COVID when the big camera manufacturers didn't skip NAB (i.e. 2017)! Canon, Arri, Sony and Panasonic all use a form of RLE (Run Length Encoding) and LZW (basically a ZIP file!) compression for truly lossless FULL RAW. The usually compression ratios wind up between 1.5x to 3x compression ratio DEPENDING on how detailed the background is and how much bit-wise patterns are of specific lengths that are nearby each other that make the compression of bits easier to encode.

You don't need to spend millions to build a camera that does full raw! Any Arri, Canon C200, C300, C500, C700 and Sony F-series or Venice and Panasonic Varicam, Black Magic and others ALL have full raw out on their 24 fps and 30 fps (and sometimes 60 fps) streams via USB-3.1 or SDI connector outputs. Just plug the cable into a four-drive 80-Terabyte USB 3.1 Gen-2, SDI or Fibre connector array box as an Anton-Bauer battery V-lock pack and you are good to go! (i.e. at $400 USD for the four-drive-bay 1.25 Gigabytes per second USB-3.1 Gen-2 connectors drive array box with add-on Anton-Bauer battery pack V-locks and $500 USD per 20 TB Seagate Wolfpack video drive set to RAID-0 = $2500 USD total for an easy to use if tad bulky on-back-of-camera drive-array box that records DCI-4K 4096 by 2160 pixels at 60 fps FULL RAW at 12, 14 or even 16 bits per RGB channel)

3:1 is again VISUALLY LOSSLESS so yes we humans really, mostly can't tell the difference. .....BUT THEN AGAIN... more for compositing reasons and colour grading reasons I want the RLE/LZW MATHEMATICALLY LOSSLESS compressed video at 1.5x to 3x FULL RAW LOSSLESS compressed video. It's just a preference.

Since I have both Sony Venice, Black Magic 12K, Arri-FF AND Canon C700 FF cameras in stock at the company warehouse, we use the four-bay RAID-0 drive array boxes we bought online from StarTech and had our engineers screw-in the V-Locks from Anton Battery Packs on both sides so we can just put them on the back of the camera AND power them from those same batteries. $2500 USD is a small price to pay for Full RAW DCI-4K imagery at 60 fps. Since 80 Terabytes on the back of a camera is 300 seconds (5 minutes at 2:1 LOSSLESS at DCI-4K), that is more than enough time to shoot most 1-to-2 minute scenes. We just switch out the drive pack as we have multiple ones as we need them. We treat our shoots like actual Cinema productions since we have to have the camera crew work exactly like a typical Hollywood Movie Production. And since we are in Vancouver, Canada the 3rd Largest Cinema production centre it means it's easy to get the production personnel to handle our shoots like it was a typical commercial production but using our in-house gear.

The Data Wranglers put the 80 TB on actual off-line digital linear tape backup later anyways for long-term storage. (i.e. IBM and Fuji 100 TB tape drives!) The Seagate 20 TB Wolfpack spinning hard disk drives are so cheap, we buy them by the thousands at work!

64k resolution video is a Fantasy? NOPE! It's happening TODAY! In fact, our parent Aerospace company has a custom-inhouse-designed-and-built 150 mm by 150 mm CMOS sensor that shoots 128-bits per RGB+Alpha/Distance pixels at native 32-bits per RGB+A/D channel at a full 131,072 by 131,072 pixels resolution (1.1 microns per photosite) at a 1000 fps recording frame rate.

It was in November/December 2023 where I did a multi-day shoot at the Whistler-Blackcomb ski resort and in the nearby City of Vancouver with that monster-sized sensor using a three-camera-shoot for a 30 minute video presentation that showcased SPACE and TERRESTRIAL imagery presented on an ultrawide 3:1 aspect ratio 120 foot by 40 foot (36.5 metres by 12 metres) at 1000 fps on an RGB colour laser projector. The editing, compositing, VFX and colour-grading was done on a supercomputer system with custom-coded editing software with multi-many-tens-of-Exabytes-sized hard drive arrays and off-line linear tape drive storage so that helped!

At a NYQUIST-downsampled 64-bits per RGBA pixel and a NYQUIST-downsampled three-RGB-colour-laser-projectors image size of 196,608 pixels by 65,536 pixels at 1000 fps, the resulting absolute image smoothness and image quality is WAAAAAAAAAAAY BEYOND ANYTHING that Hollywood has ever produced! Considering the type of customers we are dealing with, the approximately $25 MILLION USD we spent on that 30 minute video production was not all that much considering the size of the Aerospace Contract amounts we are talking about!

V
 
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#119
Omn said:
DR and low light shadow performance are related but separate properties. Tripple base ISO is advantage for the latter, perhaps one of the reasons there is no DGO.

ARRI has best DR by far but good luck with high ISO push.
Click to expand...
From what i gathered in my limited time looking in arri. i would assume that with all the DR in the camera you probably just shoot at base than manipulate the image in post most of the time instead of changing the iso. I think the Alexa 35 is about 17 usable stops.
 
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#120
RayValdez360 said:
From what i gathered in my limited time looking in arri. i would assume that with all the DR in the camera you probably just shoot at base than manipulate the image in post most of the time instead of changing the iso. I think the Alexa 35 is about 17 usable stops.
Click to expand...

Lookup how EI works with Alexa.

A35 has the best DR and post lattitude by far but it's not a low light camera. I've analysed it. DR is unbeliveable, it is in a league of it's own. And no camera maker has surpassed even previous Alexas in DR.

DR and sensitivity are not the same.
For example, R1 will have smaller DR than A35 but superior low light performance in high ISO, like C400 and C80 with tripple gain circuitry.

It will be interesting to see detailed comparison of R1 and C80/C400 low light performance.
 
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