PhotonsToPhotos does the Canon EOS R5 Mark II and it’s good

except I wouldn't - because the A7R5 lacks the speed that R5 Mark II has in both terms of the readout speed, just fps - because of that - it's far closer to an A1. I tried to make sure that people were aware that it's that speed that drives some of the sensor compromises. When you look at the specs of the A1 and compare to the R5 Mark II - they are quite close.

it all depends on why you are buying the camera. sensor readout speed isn't going to bother anyone serious, same with fps. If you want high fps, stop pretending and just shoot 8k30p and grab still frames from your video and be done with it.

I'd say that Canon lacks a competitor to the A7R5 - which would be a high MP R5s camera and I've certainly whined that we need an R5s ;)

But there aren't even any rumors about such a beast! is that because Canon has lost faith or is CR slacking off?
 
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All things equal (which they never are)--isn't it obvious that more dynamic range as well as more pixels... in the abstract... are ALWAYS better?!

I don't think there is a decent digital photographer out there who hasn't...

a. lifted shadows and b. cropped

...hundreds (thousands?) of images.

In particular, lifting shadows in an image that is just right as far as no blown-out highlights are concerned, what sort of matters to me is making such an.image look like it does to my eyes.

DR is of import here...

Along these lines--our eyes and our brains, working together, what is the human DR real-time limit?
 
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Along these lines--our eyes and our brains, working together, what is the human DR real-time limit?
Based on his username neuroanatomist would probably know better, but roughly 20 stops IIRC. Thing is we don’t have displays that can show that level of dynamic range and with most photos still not being shared in HDR, that puts a limit on the dynamic range in pictures we share. The dynamic range captured by our cameras mostly manifests as giving us more room to post process.
 
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yes but that sensor isn't mirrorless capable really.
I wasn't expecting them to put an industrial use aps-h sensor into a mirrorless body, I was merely making the observation that Canon decided it was worth producing this sensor for industrial applications but they seem much less concerned about a high mp consumer camera. It always interests me what Canon decides to actually bring to market because they do a significant amount of r&d.
 
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Based on his username neuroanatomist would probably know better, but roughly 20 stops IIRC. Thing is we don’t have displays that can show that level of dynamic range and with most photos still not being shared in HDR, that puts a limit on the dynamic range in pictures we share. The dynamic range captured by our cameras mostly manifests as giving us more room to post process.
...very good reading here:


...very good.

From the link::

If we were to instead consider our eye's instantaneous dynamic range (where our pupil opening is unchanged), then cameras fare much better. This would be similar to looking at one region within a scene, letting our eyes adjust, and not looking anywhere else. In that case, most estimate that our eyes can see anywhere from 10-14 f-stops of dynamic range, which definitely surpasses most compact cameras (5-7 stops), but is surprisingly similar to that of digital SLR cameras (8-11 stops).

EDIT: also good


So, what is the dynamic range of the human eye in terms of cinematography?​


The total dynamic range of what the human eye is capable of seeing is about 30 stops.

However, the best estimate we can arrive at to get some sort of equivalence with a cinema camera, is the sum of the photopic and mesopic aspects of vision. This accounts for most of our daily activities.

This is about 21 stops. We might only be seeing 10 stops in one go, but we feel we’re seeing 21 stops. Any camera has to contend with that perception.

We know this because, even though we film with cameras with 12, 13 or 14 stops of dynamic range, we intuitively feel it isn’t enough, and doesn’t represent what we see.

Any images that have more than 20 stops of dynamic range look unnatural to the eye, like those hyper processed HDR images. They seem off.

=====
 
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All things equal (which they never are)--isn't it obvious that more dynamic range as well as more pixels... in the abstract... are ALWAYS better?!

...
If you like HDR images, then the answer is probably yes. If you think HDR images look fake, then maybe the answer is no.

More Dynamic Range = less contrast. If Ansel Adams were here, might be a good question for him, what is more important DR or contrast?

I will admit that I have an art background, not photography. Some basic guidelines for drawing and painting that I think also apply to photography are:

1) Use a limited number of values (Values essentially = Dynamic range).

2) The human eye, when looking at a subject in the light, sees very limited detail and values in the shadows. (just like a camera). And when looking at a subject in the dark, sees very limited detail and values in the highlights. Therefore, do not show a lot of detail in both shadows and lights. (Again, like a camera. The difference with your eye is that it can instantly switch from seeing a subject in the dark to a subject in the light, thus the appearance that the eye has a wide "Dynamic Range." I suppose going back to HDR images, if you like them and feel they look more natural as to what the eye sees, then you are not incorrect, but if you don't like them and feel they look unnatural, that is also correct. It depends on how you interpret what the eye sees. What it sees in what instant, or what it sees as it almost instantly adjusts.

I understand that with more and more dynamic range, you can edit in post to add contrast and reduce DR where you want and how much you want. If you don't mind major post processing, then I suppose more DR is always a positive. If you want to minimize post processing and want more contrast - and more saturated and "punchy" color - as many people do comment on as something that they used to have with older cameras - then maybe more and more DR might become a negative.

In terms of more pixels, I think we are all aware that more and more pixels means smaller pixels and that diffraction then becomes more and more of an issue. And while sensors have become very efficient, and pixel size has become much less of a factor, real world results from actual photographers continually support the idea that cameras with less MPs still have cleaner images at higher ISOs than higher MP cameras.
 
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If you like HDR images, then the answer is probably yes. If you think HDR images look fake, then maybe the answer is no.

More Dynamic Range = less contrast. If Ansel Adams were here, might be a good question for him, what is more important DR or contrast?
[…]
You’re conflating source DR and how it’s tone mapped to the viewing medium.

The RAW converter you’re using has an opinion on which tonemap to use, if you don’t like that, switch to a different converter or find out if you can configure your current one to apply a different profile by default.

But please refrain from spouting pseudo-scientific bullshit about more source DR automatically meaning less contrast. RAW files have no concept of contrast, you have to map their values to their colours first and then try to figure out a curve on how to maps the value to a real world brightness.
Even with a theoretical 100 stop sensor. it’s up to the programmer (or their boss) on how much ‘contrast’ you see on your screen.

Or to put it differently: why do gamma curves exist if contrast is solely decided by the source DR like you claim?
 
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You’re conflating source DR and how it’s tone mapped to the viewing medium.

The RAW converter you’re using has an opinion on which tonemap to use, if you don’t like that, switch to a different converter or find out if you can configure your current one to apply a different profile by default.

But please refrain from spouting pseudo-scientific bullshit about more source DR automatically meaning less contrast. RAW files have no concept of contrast, you have to map their values to their colours first and then try to figure out a curve on how to maps the value to a real world brightness.
Even with a theoretical 100 stop sensor. it’s up to the programmer (or their boss) on how much ‘contrast’ you see on your screen.

Or to put it differently: why do gamma curves exist if contrast is solely decided by the source DR like you claim?
More DR equals less contrast. It is not pseudo-scientific bullshit. Perhaps we are defining the term contrast differently. That is the only explanation that I have as to why you and I do not agree at what should be fairly obvious to anyone. I never said contrast is solely decided by the source DR. I made it plainly clear that post processing is involved in the final image.
 
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If you like HDR images, then the answer is probably yes. If you think HDR images look fake, then maybe the answer is no.

More Dynamic Range = less contrast. If Ansel Adams were here, might be a good question for him, what is more important DR or contrast?

I will admit that I have an art background, not photography. Some basic guidelines for drawing and painting that I think also apply to photography are:

1) Use a limited number of values (Values essentially = Dynamic range).

2) The human eye, when looking at a subject in the light, sees very limited detail and values in the shadows. (just like a camera). And when looking at a subject in the dark, sees very limited detail and values in the highlights. Therefore, do not show a lot of detail in both shadows and lights. (Again, like a camera. The difference with your eye is that it can instantly switch from seeing a subject in the dark to a subject in the light, thus the appearance that the eye has a wide "Dynamic Range." I suppose going back to HDR images, if you like them and feel they look more natural as to what the eye sees, then you are not incorrect, but if you don't like them and feel they look unnatural, that is also correct. It depends on how you interpret what the eye sees. What it sees in what instant, or what it sees as it almost instantly adjusts.

I understand that with more and more dynamic range, you can edit in post to add contrast and reduce DR where you want and how much you want. If you don't mind major post processing, then I suppose more DR is always a positive. If you want to minimize post processing and want more contrast - and more saturated and "punchy" color - as many people do comment on as something that they used to have with older cameras - then maybe more and more DR might become a negative.

In terms of more pixels, I think we are all aware that more and more pixels means smaller pixels and that diffraction then becomes more and more of an issue. And while sensors have become very efficient, and pixel size has become much less of a factor, real world results from actual photographers continually support the idea that cameras with less MPs still have cleaner images at higher ISOs than higher MP cameras.
Wow. I just can’t get the images of my old 20D to look more contrasty than the images from my R5. And no matter how I fiddle with noise reduction, I can’t get the low-light 20D images to look cleaner that the R5 images.

I guess I just don’t see things the way you do, Quack. Especially when you claim that more DR makes more post processing work. I just can’t see it.
 
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More Dynamic Range = less contrast.
Values essentially = Dynamic range
You should stop before you embarrass yourself further.

Dynamic range is the ratio of brightest to darkest at capture, contrast is the ratio of brightest to darkest when viewing output. The two are directly related. If you have low DR at capture, you have low contrast when viewing. If you have high DR at capture, you can have high contrast when viewing, or you can reduce that contrast if desired.

You are confusing dynamic range with bit depth (the number of discrete steps into which the dynamic range is divided for storage or display).
 
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it's actually an impressive feat to make a sensor readout 10x or so faster and not lose image quality.

16.5ms to 6.3ms (2.5x) , as 12 bit to 14 bit is 4x.
Yes I agree. I think there's a bit more to the R5 ->R5II upgrade that gets lost in a lot of the review / stats sites.
The Original R5 wasn't 14 bit across the entire Mechanical / 1St Curtain shutter modes. It was 13 bit in H+ mode in both 1st Curtain or Mechanical. This isn't represented on any chart that's seen, but would lower the the DR / ISO noise bu about a stop at 12fps. Most test sites have not tested the sensor in H+ mode. Which is odd because anyone using this camera for fast moving wildlife / birds or sport is going to want to use that shutter mode exclusively. So on the R5, 14 bit non H+ yeilds a max fps of 8fps, not 12fps. If you want 12fps, then your have 13 bit and a slightly reduced DR / ISO noise compared to 14 bit. I specifically upgraded my EF 400mm f2.8 LIS to a mk II because the MK1 could only offer me 7-8 fps max on my R6II and it would be the same on a R5/R5II.

One of the pleasures the R6II and now the R5II is that the cameras are fully 14 bit in 1st Curtain & Mechanical shutter regardless of the shutter burst speed. With the R5II having 14 bit conversion in ES mode too. For R5 upgrader's these two features are a dramatic improvement. Not so important with users who aren't currently using lenses that can allow 12fps (some Sigma and older Canon EF lenses). And not so usefull to landscapers and studio users.

The other upgrade / new feature that is really nice on the R5II is the fact that you can now use a flash gun in ES. I was shooting a kids event with my R6II a while ago and I chose the ES. It was the ability to shoot silently that I was looking for, not the ability to shoot at 40fps. What I noticed is that my flash gun would not longer fire. The R5II gets a flash sync rate of 1/160th second. My R8 and R6II do not have any flash sync ability in ES mode.

I'm guessing we'll see a similar sensor concept in the future R6III too.

For me, I think I'm better served with waiting for the R6III than a R5II. I was considering a new R5 mk1, but I'm turned off my the 13bit H+ mode and limiting myself to 8fps will be irritating.
 
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You should stop before you embarrass yourself further.

Dynamic range is the ratio of brightest to darkest at capture, contrast is the ratio of brightest to darkest when viewing output. The two are directly related. If you have low DR at capture, you have low contrast when viewing. If you have high DR at capture, you can have high contrast when viewing, or you can reduce that contrast if desired.

You are confusing dynamic range with bit depth (the number of discrete steps into which the dynamic range is divided for storage or display).
Neuro, or anyone else. Please enlighten me then. Let me know if I am wrong with the following....

Camera 1: I shoot a scene (or test chart) with an object that is dark gray, let's say 75% black. My photo shows that object, and everything that is darker, to be 100% black.
Camera 2: Same scene. My photo now shows that 75% black object to be a dark gray and now objects need to be 90% black or darker show up as black in my photo.

Does camera 2 have greater DR then camera 1? I would say yes.
 
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