A Look into Canon’s Ergonomics

#21
Del Paso said:
Agree!
But, even when hiking, I far prefer the size of the 5 D IV over the R5/R6.
Not everybody has baby-hands, these cameras are hard to use without protheses like battery-grips or body "extensions". Isn't it a bit silly having to graft a piece of cast aluminium on a camera so one can comfortably handhold it?
How about a normal-sized EOS R* ?
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For me, it depends in the lens as well. The R8 + 28mm is fine in my averaged sized hands (being 1cm below average height here in .nl), but when using something like the RF100L or RF100-500L, I really need the EG-E1 minigrip.
When I tried an R7 for a week, I 3d printed something very much like the EG-E1, it massively improved my joy at using it with the 100-500L.

I think having an EG-E1 equivalent for the R5II could improve ergonomics for me, I don't think a grip with 2x LP-E6 batteries will make it feel like a 1 or 3 series.
 
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#22
wyotex43n said:
Concerning the R5, I wish that Canon would put some type of dimple or bumps on the Q, info, and zoom buttons. They are very close together and hard to differentiate between them especially when wearing gloves.
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I fully agree. And after a day in a dark hide: please illuminate the buttons on the R5 Mk II. And change the position of the AF joystick on the grip for the vertical / portrait position.
 
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#23
canon's front dial makes your wrist pronate 1, your fingers are no longer firmly holding the grip 2, your pinky is no longer on the grip, especially with small bodies like rp 3.

i believe that all the whining across the internet about the grip and pinky is coming from canon users just because of that dial, that has been introduced with eos 650 in 1987. it has never been considered a flaw. there are no camera manufacturers that have copied this. none.
 
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#24
Excellent article, @Richard CR – thanks for the well-composed and -presented summary and for sharing your opinions.

One minor correction:
Richard CR said:
Conversely, the new joystick control in the R3 looks like a stroke of genius that I hope we see on more cameras in the future.
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The Smart Controller was actually first featured on the 1D X III that launched a year prior to the R3. Either way, I find it to be the best AF point selection method I've ever used, coupling easy and extremely fast movement with the AF-ON function. When I started with 9 AF points, a regular joystick or even a D-pad was sufficient. With the 61 points of the 1D X, the joystick was already becoming problematic. With the entire field being AF points, the Smart Controller is more than smart, genius is the right word.

Back to the article as a whole, perhaps Part 2 can cover the ergonomics (and lack thereof) of accessory battery grips. :D
 
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#25
neuroanatomist said:
Excellent article, @Richard CR – thanks for the well-composed and -presented summary and for sharing your opinions.

One minor correction:

The Smart Controller was actually first featured on the 1D X III that launched a year prior to the R3. Either way, I find it to be the best AF point selection method I've ever used, coupling easy and extremely fast movement with the AF-ON function. When I started with 9 AF points, a regular joystick or even a D-pad was sufficient. With the 61 points of the 1D X, the joystick was already becoming problematic. With the entire field being AF points, the Smart Controller is more than smart, genius is the right word.

Back to the article as a whole, perhaps Part 2 can cover the ergonomics (and lack thereof) of accessory battery grips. :D
Click to expand...

Thank you :)

That's right! I forgot the 1DX Mark III had it.

Battery grips seem to be Canon's new cripple hammer. I commented to Craig that I don't get the lack of them on the RF mount - before even the Rebels would have grips.

You'd think with the greater battery drains having grips for each camera would be a no brainer.
 
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#26
Canon Rumors Guy said:
I had no idea about that with the R8.... very strange change.
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From an anatomical standpoint, adduction of the thumb is stronger and faster than abduction and flexion of a finger is stronger/faster than extension. I suspect that's the driver for the switch directionality – for all of the R bodies, turning the camera on is thumb adduction or finger flexion, the idea being they expect you'll be in more of a hurry to turn the camera on that to turn it off.

Thus, the off-lock-on switch of the R8 and R6II are moved from off to on by flexing your index finger, and the R5/R6 and R3 are turned on by adducting your thumb.
 
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#27
neuroanatomist said:
From an anatomical standpoint, adduction of the thumb is stronger and faster than abduction and flexion of a finger is stronger/faster than extension. I suspect that's the driver for the switch directionality – for all of the R bodies, turning the camera on is thumb adduction or finger flexion, the idea being they expect you'll be in more of a hurry to turn the camera on that to turn it off.

Thus, the off-lock-on switch of the R8 and R6II are moved from off to on by flexing your index finger, and the R5/R6 and R3 are turned on by adducting your thumb.
Click to expand...
That’s good deduction.
 
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#29
neuroanatomist said:
From an anatomical standpoint, adduction of the thumb is stronger and faster than abduction and flexion of a finger is stronger/faster than extension. I suspect that's the driver for the switch directionality – for all of the R bodies, turning the camera on is thumb adduction or finger flexion, the idea being they expect you'll be in more of a hurry to turn the camera on that to turn it off.

Thus, the off-lock-on switch of the R8 and R6II are moved from off to on by flexing your index finger, and the R5/R6 and R3 are turned on by adducting your thumb.
Click to expand...
The problem happens (for me, anyway) when you use thumb for one body and finger for another and the brain doesn’t remember which goes with which when using two bodies. Maybe it’s just me.
 
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#30
Another (y) for this excellent article, @Richard CR – thank you very much.
I fully agree that since the R system introduction, it seems that Canon ergonomics went into a new "Age of Experimentation".
And the button and wheel layout is really changing from cam to cam.

OTOH, ergonomics are not only the layout of the controls but also how the camera and lens fit in the hand.
When I showed my firs FF DSLR body to my father, he complained about how big and heavy it was, compared to his AE-1.
And even though it was easy to hold, because of the continuation of the Colani design I somehow had to agree.
So I liked the idea of MILC cameras getting smaller again.
I feel comfortable with my R6m2 today, no matter if I put my "big" RF100-500 on it or the RF28 pancake.

What I really cannot understand and forgive is the design of the rear lens cap, as it fits in just one position.
Changing lenses in the field has become much more fiddly and takes 3 times as long.
 
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#31
UlfricStormcloak said:
canon's front dial makes your wrist pronate 1, your fingers are no longer firmly holding the grip 2, your pinky is no longer on the grip, especially with small bodies like rp 3.

i believe that all the whining across the internet about the grip and pinky is coming from canon users just because of that dial, that has been introduced with eos 650 in 1987. it has never been considered a flaw. there are no camera manufacturers that have copied this. none.
Click to expand...
Seems you are quite alone here.
I've never heard or read anybody "whine" about the front dial. It has indeed never been considered a flaw, because it is none.
 
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#32
Richard CR said:
Battery grips seem to be Canon's new cripple hammer. I commented to Craig that I don't get the lack of them on the RF mount - before even the Rebels would have grips.

You'd think with the greater battery drains having grips for each camera would be a no brainer.
Click to expand...
Agreed. I'm sure Canon knows how many grips they have sold for a given level of body. I bought one even for the T1i/500D that was my first DSLR, and bought them for the 7D and 5DII I bought later. After moving to the 1D X, I won't go back to a non-integrated grip camera for my primary body – for me, the larger/heavier body balances the heavy lenses I tend to use better, and does so in a much more comfortable way to hold for longer periods of time. Canon also seems to have paid much more attention to matching the landscape and portrait control positions on the 1-series/R3 than with accessory grips.

Side complaint about the R3 – I was surprised and disappointed that it lacks the lower lug for a hand strap. Technically, Canon made it unnecessary when they 'upgraded' the E1 handstrap to the E2, the latter can attach to the tripod socket (but also directly to a bottom lug since the tripod connector is removable). It's a moot point for me since the RRS plate incorporates a lug for the hand strap, but still...

Regarding Canon's decision to not offer grips for some of the recent R bodies, it could be due to sales data (grips seem popular among internet forum users, but as a whole 'we' are not representative of the broader market). It could also be a strategy to push users to move upmarket.

Were DSLR grips commonly compatible with multiple bodies? If not, the fact that the same grips are now being used on multiple bodies suggests it's more the former – reducing design costs. I do quite like that I was able to get an RP L-bracket for the R8.
 
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#33
UlfricStormcloak said:
canon's front dial makes your wrist pronate 1, your fingers are no longer firmly holding the grip 2, your pinky is no longer on the grip, especially with small bodies like rp 3.
Click to expand...
You keep using those words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean.

The right index finger is used to press the shutter button. Abducting that finger very slightly to reach the main dial requires neither moving your wrist nor holding the grip less firmly, since the finger was at the shutter button anyway. Nor does it affect whether or not there is room for your pinky on the grip, which is a function of camera height not the presence or absence of the front dial.

Put another way...WTF are you going on about?!?
 
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#35
I'm frustrated by how lens caps and lens marking work on the RF series. I've had to paint my caps with white lines to see where the marks are, and on some lenses the marks are hard to find. Also on EF lenses, the caps worked no matter how you put them on the lens. With RF, you have to line up the marks by eye first. If you get it wrong they don't fit. It makes a quick lens change take twice as long. This was a downgrade economically. The caps should have a nice visible line in Canon Red. Form over function rather than good practical design.
 
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#36
I hated the COVID pandemic for one thing in particular: I felt it's what kept us from getting a 5D Mark V.

It seems clear that early prototypes were in the wild, but the supply chain crisis of 2020 surely cancelled the project. :(
 
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#37
I went from a Rebel XT to 20D to 5D II and now R6. Having that top plate display during the DSLR days was very convenient as you could look at the buttons and dials you change while seeing the displayed changes.

I thought I would miss the top LCD, but in reality it was quite different. Since mirrorless shoot in live view on screen and have touch functionality, I stare/prod at the screen to make adjustments. I find it is more useful than a top plate lcd as it also allows me to keep track of the scene as I make changes, not to mention changing AF functions etc.
 
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#38
I still don’t understand why there’s no top lcd on the R6. The R had it and it was a smaller camera (the best feeling camera in the hand so far).
And I don’t understand the need for the on/off switch to be reachable. I just leave my camera on all the time. The power consumption is as low as when it’s turned off.
 
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#39
dbyolton said:
I'm frustrated by how lens caps and lens marking work on the RF series. I've had to paint my caps with white lines to see where the marks are, and on some lenses the marks are hard to find. Also on EF lenses, the caps worked no matter how you put them on the lens. With RF, you have to line up the marks by eye first. If you get it wrong they don't fit. It makes a quick lens change take twice as long. This was a downgrade economically. The caps should have a nice visible line in Canon Red. Form over function rather than good practical design.
Click to expand...
Achatzi in Germany (www.achatzi.de) sell lens caps which can be mounted in three positions, like the EF versions.
 
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#40
"I think this is where Canon is experimenting, creating the smallest possible cameras"

This is the mistake - the camera size has to be designed to be comfortable for a given use and given users, unless the whole system is designed for compactness, lenses included. Sometimes designers become fixated with size just because new technologies allow it - just like when mobile phones became smaller and smaller, sometimes becoming barely usable, now they are over 6" but designer became fixated with thickness, up to the point they might not be comfortable to handle. Colani about the T90 concept (I regard the T70 design ugly, even for its time, dials can't be always replaced by buttons) said "It took two years of me telling them [ Canon] that a camera is something between the human hand and the human eye, so it had to have ergonomics on both sides!”". Body parts size are more or less fixed - go too small or too big and something becomes uncomfortable to handle and use. Style has to follow ergonomics, not vice versa. But in many sectors we're now seeing a lot of bad designs.
 
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