Are we finally going to get f/2.8 constant aperture zoom lenses for APS-C/RF-S?

It seems to be a current trend that Canon, rather than improving something, they take a step back.
I suppose it's meant to save production cost, so they make more revenue.
But rather than a lame 17-45mm f/2.8 with even less zoom range than the old 17-55mm, I'd prefer a 17-70mm f/2.8 (27-112mm equivalent). If Tamron and Sigma can do it, why doesn't Canon?
Many people switch to other brands, because Canon has these holes in their APS-C portfolio. I personally use an adapted Sigma 17-70mm f/2.8-4. Great all-around lens, I just wish Canon had an alternative with the same zoom range, sharpness and fast aperture.
I have the 17-70 Sigma adapted lens as well but it is very bulky for a walk around lens. I have switched to the much smaller and faster 18-50. I do believe this small constant aperature lens will become very popular for Canon rf-s camera users.

This type of lens seems to me to be low hanging fruit for Canon to make and sell in droves, it is strange that they have ignored it for so long.
 
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Somebody getting a new system on a budget is better served by FF cameras like the RP and R8, as you point out.

IMO, an f/2.8 APSC zoom would be aimed at people who have a RF 100-500 with an R7 body for "reach", and are looking for an upmarket standard zoom for this crop body that they already own.

At this stage of the game, going APSC and upmarket doesn't make too much sense. Unless the lens is tiny and will result in a big weight and size reduction. Might be nice for a travel setup. Although, a new incarnation of the 15-85 would serve this purpose better. I'll stop now because I think I'm rambling on.
I'll add one more thought: a 24-105/4 full-frame is roughly equivalent to a 15-65/2.8 for crop. So an RF incarnation of the EF-S 17-55/2.8 has less range at both ends compared to its full-frame equivalent.

I used to own both a Canon 17-55/2.8 and a Tamron 17-50/2.8 and I can tell you that the Tamron has a noticeably wider FOV at its short end. Methinks the 17 mm for the Canon is actually closer to 18 mm.

In short, the EF-S 17-55 is a 3x zoom and the FF 24-105 is a 4x zoom. Maybe with mirrorless design we'll get a 4x zoom with f/2.8?
 
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The other thing to keep in mind about the 'global digital camera market share' numbers is that those include P&S cameras that even in 2023 still accounted for 22% of cameras shipped. From a revenue standpoint, that's not a major factor but from a unit standpoint it does make a difference, and I don't think that's a market segment that Canon dominates as they do ILCs (but I really don't know the P&S market share distribution).

However, Canon reports the number of ILCs they sell each year (from 2017 on; before that they reported y/y growth but not the actual numbers), and CIPA reports the number of ILCs shipped each year. Even though sold ≠ shipped, they're going to be close enough to approximate an ILC market share especially if you're looking across multiple years.

Looking at just ILCs, Canon's (approximate) market share was:

2023: 2.88 M / 6.00 M = 48.0%
2022: 2.86 M / 5.96 M = 48.2%
2021: 2.74 M / 5.35 M = 51.2%
2020: 2.76 M / 5.37 M = 51.5%
2019: 4.16 M / 8.46 M = 49.2%
2018: 5.04 M / 10.76 M = 46.8%
2017: 5.51 M / 11.68 M = 47.2%

I suppose some people (looking at you, @Uneternal) could look at the above data and say Canon has lost 3.5% ILC market share over a 4 year period and somehow conclude that massive numbers of people are switching away from Canon and that Canon is Doomed™. I stand by my conclusion that the data show Canon's market share has hovered around 50% for many years.

Just looking at the denominators above, you can see that the global ILC market has contracted by close to 50% over the past 7 years; if you go back further, you see that it's collapsed by ~90% from the peak. In 2017, Nikon had about 25% of the market and Sony had half of that, and over the past 7 years Nikon and Sony have swapped market shares while Canon remained stable.

The logical inference from the above is that Canon's strategy is working, and working very well. The market has shifted dramatically over the past decade, Canon has maintained their dominance. Despite that, people here continue to make claims about Canon's supposed grievous errors like 'dragging their feet on opening up the RF mount', 'not launching a high MP camera', or 'whatever'. Objectively, those claims are steaming piles of bovine scat (BS by any other name still stinks). The RF mount has been around for 6 years. Sony launched a 61 MP camera 5 years ago. If either those two exemplary claims were meaningful in terms of camera sales, the data would show the effects. They don't.

What those claims really amount to is people trying to inflate the significance of their personal desires. "I wish Canon would allow 3rd party full frame lenses for the RF mount, because I want to pay less for lenses," is a perfectly reasonable request, as is, "I want more than 45 MP," or, "I wish Canon would fill what I consider to be holes in their APS-C lens lineup." But for some reason, people can't just make those statements.

Instead, people make false claims about negative business consequences Canon has suffered because their personal wishes have not been met, or claim that what they wish for is wished for by 'everyone' or 'most people'. They have no evidence to back up such claims (though some obviously try to misinterpret data or outright make stuff up), but still they make the claims.

Oh well, if people want to look asinine, that's their choice. They'll keep on predicting that Canon is Doomed™. Will they be right? Maybe. And maybe Charlie will actually kick that football.

CB.gif
 
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I'll add one more thought: a 24-105/4 full-frame is roughly equivalent to a 15-65/2.8 for crop. So an RF incarnation of the EF-S 17-55/2.8 has less range at both ends compared to its full-frame equivalent.
I frequently pointed out to people wanting an updated 17-55/2.8 that the 24-105/4L on FF is 3mm wider, 17mm longer and 1/3-stop faster in terms of equivalence, so they may be better served by upgrading to a FF camera anyway.
 
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The other thing to keep in mind about the 'global digital camera market share' numbers is that those include P&S cameras that even in 2023 still accounted for 22% of cameras shipped. From a revenue standpoint, that's not a major factor but from a unit standpoint it does make a difference, and I don't think that's a market segment that Canon dominates as they do ILCs (but I really don't know the P&S market share distribution).

However, Canon reports the number of ILCs they sell each year (from 2017 on; before that they reported y/y growth but not the actual numbers), and CIPA reports the number of ILCs shipped each year. Even though sold ≠ shipped, they're going to be close enough to approximate an ILC market share especially if you're looking across multiple years.

Looking at just ILCs, Canon's (approximate) market share was:

2023: 2.88 M / 6.00 M = 48.0%
2022: 2.86 M / 5.96 M = 48.2%
2021: 2.74 M / 5.35 M = 51.2%
2020: 2.76 M / 5.37 M = 51.5%
2019: 4.16 M / 8.46 M = 49.2%
2018: 5.04 M / 10.76 M = 46.8%
2017: 5.51 M / 11.68 M = 47.2%

I suppose some people (looking at you, @Uneternal) could look at the above data and say Canon has lost 3.5% ILC market share over a 4 year period and somehow conclude that massive numbers of people are switching away from Canon and that Canon is Doomed™. I stand by my conclusion that the data show Canon's market share has hovered around 50% for many years.

Just looking at the denominators above, you can see that the global ILC market has contracted by close to 50% over the past 7 years; if you go back further, you see that it's collapsed by ~90% from the peak. In 2017, Nikon had about 25% of the market and Sony had half of that, and over the past 7 years Nikon and Sony have swapped market shares while Canon remained stable.

The logical inference from the above is that Canon's strategy is working, and working very well. The market has shifted dramatically over the past decade, Canon has maintained their dominance. Despite that, people here continue to make claims about Canon's supposed grievous errors like 'dragging their feet on opening up the RF mount', 'not launching a high MP camera', or 'whatever'. Objectively, those claims are steaming piles of bovine scat (BS by any other name still stinks). The RF mount has been around for 6 years. Sony launched a 61 MP camera 5 years ago. If either those two exemplary claims were meaningful in terms of camera sales, the data would show the effects. They don't.

What those claims really amount to is people trying to inflate the significance of their personal desires. "I wish Canon would allow 3rd party full frame lenses for the RF mount, because I want to pay less for lenses," is a perfectly reasonable request, as is, "I want more than 45 MP," or, "I wish Canon would fill what I consider to be holes in their APS-C lens lineup." But for some reason, people can't just make those statements.

Instead, people make false claims about negative business consequences Canon has suffered because their personal wishes have not been met, or claim that what they wish for is wished for by 'everyone' or 'most people'. They have no evidence to back up such claims (though some obviously try to misinterpret data or outright make stuff up), but still they make the claims. Oh well, if people want to look asinine, that's their choice. They'll keep on predicting that Canon is Doomed™. Will they be right? Maybe. And maybe Charlie will actually kick that football.

View attachment 219483
There is also one certainty: Sony and Nikon don't make money with 3rd. party lenses, apart from selling a few more bodies to people wanting specific Tamrons or Sigmas or with license fees.
I expect some substantial money is made with selling OEM lenses.
Why should Canon want to enrich Sigma & co.?
 
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There is also one certainty: Sony and Nikon don't make money with 3rd. party lenses, apart from selling a few more bodies to people wanting specific Tamrons or Sigmas or with license fees.
I expect some substantial money is made with selling OEM lenses.
Why should Canon want to enrich Sigma & co.?
Certainty??? How much is the licensing fee that Canon is charging Sigma on a per lens basis? How much is Canon charging Sigma for technical support to ensure compatibility? Are both figures zero and how do you know this?
 
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Certainty??? How much is the licensing fee that Canon is charging Sigma on a per lens basis? How much is Canon charging Sigma for technical support to ensure compatibility? Are both figures zero and how do you know this?
Nobody said zero. Definitely not me.
But profits selling own lenses are certainly higher than licensing fees. Otherwise, why should companies spend money on lens R/D if they could benefit more from licensing?
 
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Nobody said zero. Definitely not me.
But profits selling own lenses are certainly higher than licensing fees. Otherwise, why should companies spend money on lens R/D if they could benefit more from licensing?
The only certainty is that both Canon and Sigma entered into this agreement because both of them felt that they benefited from it. I would be absolutely amazed if the details ever became public.

Update to first line: The only certainty is that both Canon and Sigma entered into this agreement because each of them felt that it benefited from doing so.
 
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The only certainty is that both Canon and Sigma entered into this agreement because both of them felt that they benefited from it. I would be absolutely amazed if the details ever became public.

Update to first line: The only certainty is that both Canon and Sigma entered into this agreement because each of them felt that it benefited from doing so.
That's right.
Canon letting Sigma produce what they don't want to make or cannot make. Capacity or cost structure? Who knows?
 
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Canon is really dragging their feet in opening up the R mount to third party lens manufacturers. What about full frame lenses?
What about them? No incentive for Canon to open them up unless the license fees are juicy and won't impact Canon's lens roadmap.

I'll be very interested if Sigma's recent wide primes are available on RF (or EF!) but content with what I have until then.
 
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The actual data support my original conclusion that there is no evidence of people switching away from Canon. If you want to see what the data for people switching systems actually look like, check the market share numbers for Nikon and Sony over the past 5-6 years (if you can manage to interpret those correctly, I have my doubts about that).
Perhaps to be more specific, the market share numbers show the "net" switchers.
The numbers don't show a significant trend away from Canon but there will always be people switching (and disproportionately very vocal about it) and perhaps even buying multiple systems.

Canon has been very adept at managing the DLSR to MILC transition so far even with demands of 3rd party lenses and complaints of being late to the MILC party.

Canon has been releasing products to their own drumbeat but I believe that their share could increase more if they had more directly competing products for lenses and bodies to what already exist in other ecosystems.
 
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In short, the EF-S 17-55 is a 3x zoom and the FF 24-105 is a 4x zoom. Maybe with mirrorless design we'll get a 4x zoom with f/2.8?
That would be the RF24-105/2.8 Z
Considered a great lens but heavy, big and expensive.
My contention is that potential APS-C buyers are looking at inexpensive/small system or prosumer pixels-on-duck performance.
The latter are best served by using FF lenses on the R7 although they would want good RF-S wide angle prime/zooms.
The former are looking at small and cheaper solutions where f2.8 is generally not small or cheap.
YMMV
 
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That would be the RF24-105/2.8 Z
Considered a great lens but heavy, big and expensive.
My contention is that potential APS-C buyers are looking at inexpensive/small system or prosumer pixels-on-duck performance.
The latter are best served by using FF lenses on the R7 although they would want good RF-S wide angle prime/zooms.
The former are looking at small and cheaper solutions where f2.8 is generally not small or cheap.
YMMV
I disagree with the concept of using a FF lens on an APS-C as a standard lens. I want a more compact camera and lens for portability. If I am always using a FF lens, may as well get a FF body like the R8. Given the image quality hit of APS-C, there needs to be benefit, i.e. cost and/or size. A FF lens will negate one or both of these benefits.
 
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I disagree with the concept of using a FF lens on an APS-C as a standard lens. I want a more compact camera and lens for portability. If I am always using a FF lens, may as well get a FF body like the R8. Given the image quality hit of APS-C, there needs to be benefit, i.e. cost and/or size. A FF lens will negate one or both of these benefits.
I started my expensive camera system journey with a 7D and EF24-105/4L so the concept exists... but it may not exist for you.

I added a EF-S10-21 for the wide angle before an insurance claim and moved to 5Diii and the EF-S lens needed to be sold. The nice part of R mount is that RF-S and RF lenses can coexist (with limitations).

Canon has not created a small/light/cheap f2.8 longer lens for APS-C. The question for me/them is how big is the potential market for that type of lens vs using a existing FF lens instead. As you say, the bodies for APS-C and R8 aren't hugely different so I believe the market to be small. Happy to be proved wrong of course.
 
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I frequently pointed out to people wanting an updated 17-55/2.8 that the 24-105/4L on FF is 3mm wider, 17mm longer and 1/3-stop faster in terms of equivalence, so they may be better served by upgrading to a FF camera anyway.

That's exactly what I ended up doing. I was fed up waiting for decent APS-C glass to come out. So I sold my 17-55/2.8 (which I never really liked, because of the dust pump issues and zoom creep) and my 6DII and got myself a used R6 and the RF 24-105/4L. And honestly, I never looked back since then.

Though still using the R7 extensively for wildlife and travel. I'd still be happy if Canon finally released a dedicated APS-C RF-S 15-60mm or 15-85mm and I'd probably even buy it. Would be nice to finally get rid of my EF-S 15-85 and leave the R-EF adapter at home when travelling. Although it's still an excellent lense, performing great on the R7.
 
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I frequently pointed out to people wanting an updated 17-55/2.8 that the 24-105/4L on FF is 3mm wider, 17mm longer and 1/3-stop faster in terms of equivalence, so they may be better served by upgrading to a FF camera anyway.
Absolutely correct. What we need for APS-C is a high end lens in terms of build quality including weatherproofing, and optical excellence, but constant f/2.8 is chasing something we will never actually achieve with a small sensor. I also own Olympus/OM gear and it makes me smile when I see discussions about f1.7 (or whatever) M4/3 primes, which are no better in terms of light gathering or background blur than some full frame kit zooms. That's just not what M4/3 is good at.

And, as discussed elsewhere, we need a body which is good enough to justify spending £1,000 plus on a standard zoom, otherwise there is no point.
 
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