Why I believe Canon should give a better ending for the DSLR system

#21
Joules said:
Those numbers sure don't tell the whole story - we also share about 60% of our DNA with Fruit Flies and even Bananas! :oops:

Source: Pfizer.com

But just as with cameras, how much those numbers mean in terms of actual differences depends on who evaluates them and from what angle. I think it is quite a large difference. Certainly one allows Canon to viable produce and improve its lineup in the new market conditions we transitioned to since the rise of smartphone while the other appears to not do so. That's more than a 2% difference if you ask me.
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The subtlety of my original comment about 98% same DNA between us and chimps was missed by some, but not you. The figure of 98% identity between DSLRs and mirrorless is meaningless, a number plucked out of thin air, and even if true, small differences in percentages can make a huge difference in function.
 
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#23
AlanF said:
The subtlety of my original comment about 98% same DNA between us and chimps was missed by some, but not you. The figure of 98% identity between DSLRs and mirrorless is meaningless, a number plucked out of thin air, and even if true, small differences in percentages can make a huge difference in function.
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The take home point from Czardoom's post was that the change from DSLR to mirrorless was an evolutionary progression in the design of digital cameras, and that they shared a lot of similarities. I trust we were meant to take the '98%' as a figure of speech to mean 'almost identical', but I guess I'm stating the obvious here! :)
 
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#24
LogicExtremist said:
The take home point from Czardoom's post was that the change from DSLR to mirrorless was an evolutionary progression in the design of digital cameras, and that they shared a lot of similarities. I trust we were meant to take the '98%' as a figure of speech to mean 'almost identical', but I guess I'm stating the obvious here! :)
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All current cameras are part of an evolutionary progression from the original cameras with a lens, shutter and sensor as is homo sapiens from a common ancestor with other primates, which should be obvious. As Joules pointed out, small differences can make a lot of difference in practice.
 
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#25
AlanF said:
All current cameras are part of an evolutionary progression from the original cameras with a lens, shutter and sensor as is homo sapiens from a common ancestor with other primates, which should be obvious. As Joules pointed out, small differences can make a lot of difference in practice.
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The change from film, a photochemical process, where the camera was just a empty box with some mechanical parts, and image development was done with trays of chemicals in a darkroom, to digital, where an electronic photosensor records a virtual digital image was technologically revolutionary.

The shift from DSLR to mirrorless is more incremental and evolutionary, though I totally agree that the small change makes a big difference in the way the cameras are used and what they can do. From an electronic perspective though, the difference is large, because DSLRs only engage the sensor for the brief moment the shutter is open (unless they're running in live view mode on back LCD). Whereas a mirrorless is really a continuously running video camera that projects the image to a small LCD screen in the viewfinder or rear LCD, pausing briefly to process data in a different way to save it as a photo when the shutter button is pressed, so the sensor runs continuously. It's still a digital camera, that runs very differently lol! :)

I always wonder about the longevity of a mirrorless sensor in the long term for that reason. Will we need sensor runtime like we have mechanical shutter count?
 
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#26
AlanF said:
The subtlety of my original comment about 98% same DNA between us and chimps was missed by some, but not you. The figure of 98% identity between DSLRs and mirrorless is meaningless, a number plucked out of thin air, and even if true, small differences in percentages can make a huge difference in function.
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Yes, I guess my point was, as far as I see it. there is not a huge difference in function BECAUSE the cameras are mirrorless. I do not expect everyone to agree. Just stating my opinion. I don't see that huge difference in function, at least for me BECAUSE the camera is mirrorless. Are DSLRs capable of face, eye subject detection that we are getting now in mirrorless? I admit that I don't know, but I believe the 1DX III already had head and face detection, so would more have been possible? I don't know. While the approx. WYSIWIG functioning of the EVF is, in my experience, one of the the biggest differences, it merely provides more information - it does not change the functioning. The photographer still has to decide whether or not (and how much) to under or over expose, and turn the dial accordingly. Is that enough to put mirrorless is a new category? The new mirrorless cameras have far more focus points that cover far more area. Of course, not all DSLRs had the same amount of focus points or area covered, but do more focus points create a new category of camera any more than more MPs would? Isn't the basic acquisition (phase detect) and display of focus the same or similar enough? If someone walks into a camera store and sees, pick ups, and even uses a 5D IV and then an R5, will they really think it is a whole different type of camera, or will they think that one is just a newer, more advanced version of the other? Same shape, same basic ergonomics, both use interchangeable lenses, both have one shot and continuous focus, and single shot and burst modes, both do stills and video, both have 3:2 aspect ration, both have hot shoes and can use the same accessories. Same or similar exposure modes. Same or similar AF areas. Same type of sensor (CMOS). I'm sure someone will post a list of all the differences, but the question is, how many of those differences are because the camera is mirrorless? I don't know all the answers and freely admit it, but just expressing my opinion that I am not sure why there has been this many-year-long battle and debate about these types of cameras, which in my mind are so similar (and were certainly far more similar a few years ago).
 
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#27
Czardoom said:
Yes, I guess my point was, as far as I see it. there is not a huge difference in function BECAUSE the cameras are mirrorless. I do not expect everyone to agree. Just stating my opinion. I don't see that huge difference in function, at least for me BECAUSE the camera is mirrorless. Are DSLRs capable of face, eye subject detection that we are getting now in mirrorless? I admit that I don't know, but I believe the 1DX III already had head and face detection, so would more have been possible? I don't know. While the approx. WYSIWIG functioning of the EVF is, in my experience, one of the the biggest differences, it merely provides more information - it does not change the functioning. The photographer still has to decide whether or not (and how much) to under or over expose, and turn the dial accordingly. Is that enough to put mirrorless is a new category? The new mirrorless cameras have far more focus points that cover far more area. Of course, not all DSLRs had the same amount of focus points or area covered, but do more focus points create a new category of camera any more than more MPs would? Isn't the basic acquisition (phase detect) and display of focus the same or similar enough? If someone walks into a camera store and sees, pick ups, and even uses a 5D IV and then an R5, will they really think it is a whole different type of camera, or will they think that one is just a newer, more advanced version of the other? Same shape, same basic ergonomics, both use interchangeable lenses, both have one shot and continuous focus, and single shot and burst modes, both do stills and video, both have 3:2 aspect ration, both have hot shoes and can use the same accessories. Same or similar exposure modes. Same or similar AF areas. Same type of sensor (CMOS). I'm sure someone will post a list of all the differences, but the question is, how many of those differences are because the camera is mirrorless? I don't know all the answers and freely admit it, but just expressing my opinion that I am not sure why there has been this many-year-long battle and debate about these types of cameras, which in my mind are so similar (and were certainly far more similar a few years ago).
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For me, not much difference in use, as I rarely use eye AF, mostly single shot with single point AF I manually position, I do gain the use of a histogram now on mirrorless, which does help, but at the expense of a virtual viewfinder, which feels one step more disconnected from the subject matter. Having shot film briefly at school on a SLR that had no electronics other than a light meter was a very different experience!
 
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#28
LogicExtremist said:
I always wonder about the longevity of a mirrorless sensor in the long term for that reason. Will we need sensor runtime like we have mechanical shutter count?
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I think the sensor is not a part worth worrying about. I have never heard of camcorders or cinema cameras having a sensor lifetime and those sensors are read at full resolution a lot more often and for longer intervals.
LogicExtremist said:
Whereas a mirrorless is really a continuously running video camera that projects the image to a small LCD screen in the viewfinder or rear LCD...
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The viewfinder is actually not a LCD, but and OLED. Meaning that's probably one of the parts that has an actual lifetime attached to it, as OLEDs degrade over time and can additionally suffer from burn in. How much that will actually be noticed, I don't know. My OLED phone looks great even after a couple years of use and despite being a now older midrange model. With a camera EVF getting even less use, wear probably is negligible if Canon uses decent panels.

Same with the IBIS I guess. It moves, and quickly at that, but perhaps the mass and friction involved are just so low that no noticeable effect on lifetime can be expected.
 
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#29
LogicExtremist said:
For me, not much difference in use, as I rarely use eye AF, mostly single shot with single point AF I manually position, I do gain the use of a histogram now on mirrorless, which does help, but at the expense of a virtual viewfinder, which feels one step more disconnected from the subject matter. Having shot film briefly at school on a SLR that had no electronics other than a light meter was a very different experience!
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To combine your requirements and your take on the meaning of percentages with the comments of czardoom and unfocussed, the evolutionary advantage of mirrorless over dslr is 98% the same for you as the evolutionary advantage of a typewriter over a twig to a chimp for writing a novel.
 
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#30
AlanF said:
To combine your requirements and your take on the meaning of percentages with the comments of czardoom and unfocussed, the evolutionary advantage of mirrorless over dslr is 98% the same for you as the evolutionary advantage of a typewriter over a twig to a chimp for writing a novel.
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Well, the functionality is 100% exactly the same, both types of digital cameras takes photos and video! :oops:

The twig, on the other hand, is far more versatile than the typewriter. It can be used for extracting ants from their nests for a quick snack, accessing wild honey deep inside tree trunks, as a chimp back-scratcher, and a useful device for poking random things with.

Chimps aren't impressed with the uses of typewriters, other than for randomly hitting keys to rewrite Willian Shakespeare's collective works over a period of several million years lol! :ROFLMAO:
 
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#31
LogicExtremist said:
Well, the functionality is 100% exactly the same, both types of digital cameras takes photos and video! :oops:

The twig, on the other hand, is far more versatile than the typewriter. It can be used for extracting ants from their nests for a quick snack, accessing wild honey deep inside tree trunks, as a chimp back-scratcher, and a useful device for poking random things with.

Chimps aren't impressed with the uses of typewriters, other than for randomly hitting keys to rewrite Willian Shakespeare's collective works over a period of several million years lol! :ROFLMAO:
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Indeed, a twig and an iPhone would be more useful to most people taking photographs than a 1DXIII or R3.
 
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#35
AlanF said:
Planet of the Apes?
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Is that where humanity devolves to just using iPhones, and only making images for social media, so a small band of the surviving photography community lose all hope and abandon society, travelling to some long-lost, remote part of the world, where they're greeted by highly evolved apes who have Canon's flagship R1 cameras around their necks and start snapping off photos of the new human arrivals? :D
 
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#36
LogicExtremist said:
Is that where humanity devolves to just using iPhones, and only making images for social media, so a small band of the surviving photography community lose all hope and abandon society, travelling to some long-lost, remote part of the world, where they're greeted by highly evolved apes with who have Canon's flagship R1 cameras around their necks and start snapping off photos of the new human arrivals? :D
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I would not be surprised that worldwide shipping volume will go back to year 1999 levels. ;)
 
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#37
My first DSLR was the Canon 550D with a twin lens kit. I found I liked night photography so I upgraded to a 6D and a 24mm F1.4L II lens. Before I knew it I had a 200mm F2.0L IS and 1DX Mark II.

I can relate to wanting a better end to the DSLR system in one way --> I was waiting for an EF 24-70 F2.8L IS that never came along. I had the 24-70 F2.8L II but sold it around 2017 because I wanted IS for my video clips and it was rumored to be just around the corner.
I've got an incredible setup (especially as an amateur) and feel like if they released an IS 24-70mm F2.8 like was rumored for so many years, I'd have no desire to ever upgrade.

As it is, I have 14mm, 35mm, 85mm & 200mm primes but there is still that stabilized zoom hole in my kit and I think in a few years I'll upgrade to a second hand R3 with IBIS, 28-70mm F2 and EF to RF adapter with in build variable ND.

I'm not bitter about it, but if I don't get a sigma or tamron 24-70 F2.8 IS, it is an expensive route to fill this gap now.
 
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#38
When Canon & Nikon announced their transition to Mirrorless in Sep 2018 sales of dSLR in 2019-onwards dropped YoY.

These are the dSLR bodies 2018-onwards

2017 (year before Mirrorless transition)

- Nikon D7500
- Nikon D850
- Canon EOS 6D Mark II
- Canon EOS Rebel SL2 (EOS 200D / Kiss X9)
- Canon EOS 77D / EOS 9000D
- Canon EOS Rebel T7i / EOS 800D / Kiss X9i

2018 (year of the start of the Mirrorless transition)

- Canon EOS 4000D
- Canon EOS Rebel T7 (EOS 2000D)
- Nikon D3500

2019

- Canon EOS 90D
- Canon EOS Rebel SL3 (EOS 250D / EOS Kiss X10)
- Nikon D6

2020

- Canon EOS-1D X Mark III
- Canon EOS Rebel T8i (EOS 850D / EOS Kiss X10i)
- Nikon D780

By year 2026 I expect Canon & Nikon to hit lens & body parity with Sony.

A springkle of people here think there should have a more formal send off for dSLR but doing so costs money and may encourage buyers to avoid in-stock EF & F mount products. Why actively discourage people from buying?

End of parts & after sales service support will occur before year 2030.

From my perspective Canon/Nikon should have ceased any release of new dSLR SKUs as early as 2018 to avoid the Osborne effect.

In 2017 I was approached by a start up photo studio to buy all my gear at one go. Imagine if I finally agreed months before the Sep 2018 transition announcement.

I'd be rocking a Canon RF or FujiFILM G mount setup right now without suffering a sudden drop of depreciation from the Canon sell off. Not to mention photogs would have more money pre-pandemic.
 
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#39
dolina said:
When Canon & Nikon announced their transition to Mirrorless in Sep 2018 sales of dSLR in 2019-onwards dropped YoY.

These are the dSLR bodies 2018-onwards

2017 (year before Mirrorless transition)

- Nikon D7500
- Nikon D850
- Canon EOS 6D Mark II
- Canon EOS Rebel SL2 (EOS 200D / Kiss X9)
- Canon EOS 77D / EOS 9000D
- Canon EOS Rebel T7i / EOS 800D / Kiss X9i

2018 (year of the start of the Mirrorless transition)

- Canon EOS 4000D
- Canon EOS Rebel T7 (EOS 2000D)
- Nikon D3500

2019

- Canon EOS 90D
- Canon EOS Rebel SL3 (EOS 250D / EOS Kiss X10)
- Nikon D6

2020

- Canon EOS-1D X Mark III
- Canon EOS Rebel T8i (EOS 850D / EOS Kiss X10i)
- Nikon D780

By year 2026 I expect Canon & Nikon to hit lens & body parity with Sony.

A springkle of people here think there should have a more formal send off for dSLR but doing so costs money and may encourage buyers to avoid in-stock EF & F mount products. Why actively discourage people from buying?

End of parts & after sales service support will occur before year 2030.

From my perspective Canon/Nikon should have ceased any release of new dSLR SKUs as early as 2018 to avoid the Osborne effect.

In 2017 I was approached by a start up photo studio to buy all my gear at one go. Imagine if I finally agreed months before the Sep 2018 transition announcement.

I'd be rocking a Canon RF or FujiFILM G mount setup right now without suffering a sudden drop of depreciation from the Canon sell off. Not to mention photogs would have more money pre-pandemic.
Click to expand...

You seem to be confusing new model introductions with total sales.
 
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