The “3 Series” to continue after the EOS R3?

I don't really care what they name it, but I'd like a 60p 8192 × 4320 (36+mp) camera with a built in grip and R3 batteries. 180p or 240p 4k would be nice upgrade too. Thirty 36megapixel stills per second with no dynamic range penalty. Enough bandwidth to the CFexpress card for unlimited cRAW buffer. Given the way R52 overheats it better have a built in fan.
 
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I don't really care what they name it, but I'd like a 60p 8192 × 4320 (36+mp) camera with a built in grip and R3 batteries. 180p or 240p 4k would be nice upgrade too. Thirty 36megapixel stills per second with no dynamic range penalty. Enough bandwidth to the CFexpress card for unlimited cRAW buffer. Given the way R52 overheats it better have a built in fan.
The problem with that 36Mpixel spec is that it's not a 3:2 stills sensor format - it's more of 16:9 video ratio (19:10 to be precise). To fit in a normal 3:2 FF stills format you hit the ~45Mpixels: 8192 x 5460 = 44.7Mpixels.

It's going to be interesting to see how Canon wants to differentiate the R1, R3 - and the R5 series.
 
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The problem with that 36Mpixel spec is that it's not a 3:2 stills sensor format - it's more of 16:9 video ratio (19:10 to be precise). To fit in a normal 3:2 FF stills format you hit the ~45Mpixels: 8192 x 5460 = 44.7Mpixels.

It's going to be interesting to see how Canon wants to differentiate the R1, R3 - and the R5 series.
Good point. The wider the ratio, the more unused glass we have to carry around. 20 years ago I assumed we'd have octagonal sensors by now.
 
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I don't really care what they name it, but I'd like a 60p 8192 × 4320 (36+mp) camera with a built in grip and R3 batteries. 180p or 240p 4k would be nice upgrade too. Thirty 36megapixel stills per second with no dynamic range penalty. Enough bandwidth to the CFexpress card for unlimited cRAW buffer. Given the way R52 overheats it better have a built in fan.
Beside the extra battery life, the main purpose of an integrated grip is the ability to rotate from landscape to portrait seemlessly... unfortunately, your resolution is for video so less useful besides tiktok :)
The R5ii seems to be more what you are looking for or R5c for the built in fan (but no IBIS).
Back in 2020, TDP did a test for buffer speed and the R5 got 146 raw/7s of buffer with CFe card. With cRAW being ~half the size, then the buffer should be approximately double. Maybe better CFe cards now. How much do you need?
https://www.the-digital-picture.com...-R6-Buffer-Capacity-During-High-Speed-Capture
 
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Beside the extra battery life, the main purpose of an integrated grip is the ability to rotate from landscape to portrait seemlessly... unfortunately, your resolution is for video so less useful besides tiktok :)
The R5ii seems to be more what you are looking for or R5c for the built in fan (but no IBIS).
Back in 2020, TDP did a test for buffer speed and the R5 got 146 raw/7s of buffer with CFe card. With cRAW being ~half the size, then the buffer should be approximately double. Maybe better CFe cards now. How much do you need?
https://www.the-digital-picture.com...-R6-Buffer-Capacity-During-High-Speed-Capture
Using cRAW at 30FPS the R5ii's buffer runs dry in three seconds (3.5 seconds if including precapture frames). Canon cripple hammered the R5mk2's write bandwidth. The three year old R3 writes to a ProGrade Digital 2TB CFexpress 4.0 Type B Gold card 40% faster.

How many 3:2 monitors are sold these days? I see 16:9 and 64:27 (21:9) as the new standards.
 
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Using cRAW at 30FPS the R5ii's buffer runs dry in three seconds (3.5 seconds if including precapture frames). Canon cripple hammered the R5mk2's write bandwidth. The three year old R3 writes to a ProGrade Digital 2TB CFexpress 4.0 Type B Gold card 40% faster.
I don't have a R5ii to test although TDP's review confirm ~3s for 93 full sized RAW shots @30fps. Note that the R5 max speed is 20fps but....
https://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-EOS-R5-Mark-II.aspx#FrameRate,BufferDepth,Shutter

"With an exposure and scene creating a considerable amount of detail, the R5 II continuously captured 95-122 images at 30 fps, still meeting or exceeding its rating.
Need a deeper RAW buffer? Shoot in the CRAW format.Using the lexar card, the R5 II continuously shoots at 30 fps for 228 CRAW frames with a black image (14 seconds to empty the buffer) and for 214-228 frames with a detailed image"

How many 3:2 monitors are sold these days? I see 16:9 and 64:27 (21:9) as the new standards.
I'm not sure of the relevance of this comment but clearly not many monitors are 3:2.
I assume that the reason to show movies in original format hence the aspect ratio.
For editing 3:2 images (LR/PS etc), then the extra space at the side allows for the editing tools.
For laptops, the size also matches the keyboard aspect ratio better (wide/shallow).
For editing portrait images or vertical videos then the current monitor aspect ratio isn't great.
 
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People wondered (are still wondering?) what the R1 could do to surpass it.

Speed, AF, video, EVF, OLPF....and I'd say sensitivity also.

Looking forward to check DR.

If they truly are going to come out with an R3 II, and market in a similar way that the branded it last time around, it'll be something akin to an R1 II, with a few updates and the smaller (better) form factor.

Yes, stripped down R1 for those who don't shoot Olympics, F1 etc.



Btw some people keep wishing for resolution increase in wrong cameras since R1/3 are about top image performance including low light and speed, not smaller pixels limiting all this.

If you prioritise having more pixels and higher detail over other image qualities these camera models are not for you. Very simple.
 
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If we leave speed to the R1 then we are left with

Sensor choice
- 24mp => global shutter
- 30mp => the mythical "24mp" isn't enough but 45mp is too much" segment
- 80+mp => R7 replacement for pixel density + high res body in lieu of R5s. Would need to have minimum 30fps shutter for R7 replacement.

- Global shutter has poorer shadow performance & DR = > step back & autogoal
- Global shutter is not needed with R1 sensor readout speed
- Bump to 30 Mp does nothing relevant to the image while affecting bandwidth, readout speed, reducing pixel size affecting image performance. R&D team most likely went with 24Mp and not 30 for a flagship for a set of very good reasons.
- Bump to 80Mp on FF means
a) tiny pixel size = poorer image performance
b) bye bye readout speed


R3II can nicely coexist with R1 with same sensor and performance with stripped down features and/or smaller size and with more affordable pricing would likely have more sales then R1.
 
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- Global shutter has poorer shadow performance & DR = > step back & autogoal
- Global shutter is not needed with R1 sensor readout speed
- Bump to 30 Mp does nothing relevant to the image while affecting bandwidth, readout speed, reducing pixel size affecting image performance. R&D team most likely went with 24Mp and not 30 for a flagship for a set of very good reasons.
- Bump to 80Mp on FF means
a) tiny pixel size = poorer image performance
b) bye bye readout speed


R3II can nicely coexist with R1 with same sensor and performance with stripped down features and/or smaller size and with more affordable pricing would likely have more sales then R1.
There are some advantages of the current implementations of global shutter eg flash sync and outright speed but very specialist niches. Canon would need to improve the perceived limitations of the current Sony one before a future release.

Smaller pixels used to mean poorer performance but seems not to be the case anymore. The R5's DR/high ISO performance is a good example.

I provided 3 options with the global shutter being the most likely. I also mentioned that 30mp would suit some users who don't like 24mp and think 45mp is too much.

The R5ii has 14bit raw images at 30fps. 80mp would be ~roughly 14fps top speed which is still a good speed.
Feel free to describe what features would be removed for a R3ii to still maintain a market niche in a post R5ii/R1 world.
 
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There are some advantages of the current implementations of global shutter eg flash sync and outright speed but very specialist niches.

Good point but again advantage at a cost.

Smaller pixels used to mean poorer performance but seems not to be the case anymore. The R5's DR/high ISO performance is a good example.

Smaller pixels still mean poorer performance.

Sensor and processing technology has been improved to the level which has made possible shrinking pixels to an extent which provides very good image quality and wider usability with higher spatial resolution sampling. This is what we have now with 50-60 Mp full frame and 26 Mp APS-C cameras.

Laws of physics haven't changed and larger bucket still holds more then a smaller one, still has superior threshold for keeping the least and still has superior content handling qualities. Principles stay the same.

Marketing and propaganda have had their effect to mass mind though.

I have analysed R3 and R5C and R3 advantage is obvious in multiple parameters. Not something which studio flash photographer with fully controlled lighting should stress over but definitely there and definitely making a difference in other usage scenarios.

I provided 3 options with the global shutter being the most likely. I also mentioned that 30mp would suit some users who don't like 24mp and think 45mp is too much.

The R5ii has 14bit raw images at 30fps. 80mp would be ~roughly 14fps top speed which is still a good speed.

80Mp on FF would limit max aperture due to diffraction, more limiting usability of this resolution, while having 3.2 micron pixel pitch.

R5 is 4.39 microns , R3 & R1 6 microns.

3 micron pixel pitch is in the range of consumer 1" (S16) cameras, under the 3.76 pixel pitch from 26Mp APS-C cameras and not far above phone sensor cameras and would be more limiting for overall image performance.

The key advantage of full frame and larger formats in digital was overall image quality due to larger pixels and this trend of shrinking pixels removes this advantage having only higher resolution with questionable usability (lens, diffraction, low light).

Feel free to describe what features would be removed for a R3ii to still maintain a market niche in a post R5ii/R1 world.

I'm assuming few niche autofocus features most people don't need, like sports predictive "action priority", few advanced AF controls and that sensor/camera on the back.

R3II makes superior performance accessible to wider market, R1 keeps catering its niche with extra features, both focusing on 24Mp, overall IQ and speed priorities. R6II successor gets the speed of R3. R3II gets the speed and sensor of R1. I'm hoping EVF as well.
 
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Good point but again advantage at a cost.



Smaller pixels still mean poorer performance.

Sensor and processing technology has been improved to the level which has made possible shrinking pixels to an extent which provides very good image quality and wider usability with higher spatial resolution sampling. This is what we have now with 50-60 Mp full frame and 26 Mp APS-C cameras.

Laws of physics haven't changed and larger bucket still holds more then a smaller one, still has superior threshold for keeping the least and still has superior content handling qualities. Principles stay the same.

Marketing and propaganda have had their effect to mass mind though.

I have analysed R3 and R5C and R3 advantage is obvious in multiple parameters. Not something which studio flash photographer with fully controlled lighting should stress over but definitely there and definitely making a difference in other usage scenarios.



80Mp on FF would limit max aperture due to diffraction, more limiting usability of this resolution, while having 3.2 micron pixel pitch.

R5 is 4.39 microns , R3 & R1 6 microns.

3 micron pixel pitch is in the range of consumer 1" (S16) cameras, under the 3.76 pixel pitch from 26Mp APS-C cameras and not far above phone sensor cameras and would be more limiting for overall image performance.

The key advantage of full frame and larger formats in digital was overall image quality due to larger pixels and this trend of shrinking pixels removes this advantage having only higher resolution with questionable usability (lens, diffraction, low light).



I'm assuming few niche autofocus features most people don't need, like sports predictive "action priority", few advanced AF controls and that sensor/camera on the back.

R3II makes superior performance accessible to wider market, R1 keeps catering its niche with extra features, both focusing on 24Mp, overall IQ and speed priorities. R6II successor gets the speed of R3. R3II gets the speed and sensor of R1. I'm hoping EVF as well.
You can make the argument that if you want the maximum speed coupled with nearly the the best IQ, then larger pixels are the way, but if you look at image quality independent of speed and allow intelligent image processing, then the higher MP sensor will typically win. If you look at the R5 vs the R3 at photonstophotos.net, the performance is very similar and that is raw data without intelligent processing. When you add in Adobe enhance or DXO deep prime XD, then the R5 will often give slightly better results and this is comparing a BSI sensor to an FSI sensor with higher pixel density which heavily favors the lower pixel density sensor.

With regards to the 80 MP FF sensor, the M6 II, 90D, and R7 (I have all three) are already at that density and, yes, there is some limitation on minimum aperture (max by the numbers), but I have not found it to be a challenge and would welcome an R5-s or R3 with 80 to 100 MP.

Any sensible evaluation of IQ will make a comparison of an equal image area through the same lens. All else being equal, smaller pixels will always be noisier at the pixel level, but when averaged over a given area with intelligent processing, often produce a slightly better image. In the end, the difference with the latest generation of cameras is small enough to be essentially irrelevant.

The most important factor in good images is the photographer ;).
 
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You can make the argument that if you want the maximum speed coupled with nearly the the best IQ, then larger pixels are the way, but if you look at image quality independent of speed and allow intelligent image processing, then the higher MP sensor will typically win.

No, it won't.

If you look at the R5 vs the R3 at photonstophotos.net,

And if I look at my direct actual experience with R5 and R3 and results of scientific analysis you get useful feedback to consider.

When you add in Adobe enhance or DXO deep prime XD,

When you add robot discharge on dog crap it can look like flowers.

Ergo does not follow.

Any sensible evaluation of IQ will make a comparison of an equal image area through the same lens. All else being equal, smaller pixels will always be noisier at the pixel level, but when averaged over a given area with intelligent processing, often produce a slightly better image.

If you actually scientifically define image parameters which affect the interpretation of "better", beyond just having more detail - no they don't.

Also, averaging does not improve poorer saturation performance.

In the end, the difference with the latest generation of cameras is small enough to be essentially irrelevant.

For you. At this point.

The most important factor in good images is the photographer ;).


Unrelated to pixel shrinking and propaganda-pushed unrealistic tech beliefs.
 
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No, it won't.



Thanks but I have a better route for adequate conclusions about camera performance which is direct experience with R5 and R3.
And many other cameras.



When you add robot discharge on dog crap it can look like flowers.

Ergo does not follow.



If you actually scientifically define image parameters which affect the interpretation of "better", beyond just having more detail - no they don't.



For you. At this point.




Unrelated to pixel shrinking and propaganda-pushed unrealistic tech beliefs.
May you enjoy living in the aura of your own unquestionable opinion. :ROFLMAO:
 
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