Early Canon EOS R6 Mark III Specifications

#121
David_B said:
The R5-II has a 0.5 inch OLED EVF. The most important bit of info from is the 0.76 magnification. What's really missing is what percentage of Adobe RGB the EVF is. Is the EVF 100% sRGB? 100% DCI-P3? That's actually a big deal. [...]
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After discovering that the M50 and RP used the same display, but different optics for the EVF, I've been highly sceptical of judging an EVF by its display. The M50 EVF was a smeary, distorted mess than gave me headaches, the RP one was still low-res, but a joy to use.

Let's hope the new EVF covers Adobe RGB and DCI-P3, I'm confident the optics aren't M50 grade :)
 
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#122
photophil said:
Totally agree with koenkooi. Rolling shutter was the primary reason why I sold my R10, which I used for birding with the RF100-400, and purchased the 800/11 for use on the R6 instead.
The original R6 has a much faster sensor readout than the R10, but when it comes to rolling shutter artifacts, there are still situations where they are very noticeable.
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When I was looking for an APS-C RF camera to fill the 'reach' gap between selling my R5 and having an R5II in hand, I was very surprised to learn that the R7 has the lowest amount of rolling shutter. And the R7 is twice as slow as the R5/R6II/R8!
The R10 ticked all the other boxes: USB-C charging, remote port, relatively compact and a relatively decent EVF. But a new R7 was €1200 and a new R10 was €1049, that's a small price gap for a, to me, big capability gap.

So if Canon announces an EVF-less RF camera, I really hope it will have a fast enough readout, since it would mean I'd sell my R8 for it :)
 
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#124
David_B said:
Either rolling shutter problems never happened before EOS-R or people developed skills and methods such that the problem was eliminated.
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A mechanical shutter is typically equivalent to a readout speed of ~4-5 ms, i.e., similar to the R3’s electronic shutter.

A stacked sensor gets the electronic shutter readout near or faster than a mechanical shutter.
 
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#125
David_B said:
I mean I get it, you've read Canon's marketing hype and regurgitated it faithfully, but the real world differences are barely detectable when doing image analysis.
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Back off with the stupid assumptions. Nothing I talked comes from "Canon's marketing hype", it is not even Canon who started selling stacked sensors. What I talk comes from actually being interest in the tech as sensor tech goes very close with what I do for work, and I've been interested in the industry moving to stacked sensors even before the R3 was released, even if I shoot Canon.

David_B said:
The number of instances that I've had issues with rolling shutter? 0.
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So you are not part of the target market of this upgrade, congratulations, you can use your money somewhere else instead of upgrading bodies.

For my own individual uses, the R5 is more than enough. R3 would be a downgrade, R1 as well, R5ii would be a sidegrade. As most of what I do nowadays is shooting landscapes during mountain hiking, so I don't need speed, I don't need AF, all I need is good weather resistance, low weight and good IQ. So instead of crying online about new releases not being aimed at me, I just read and understand the needs they are aiming for to improve. And when you exclude yourself from the equation, you learn a lot.

And I've dabbled myself into action (sports, automotive, wildlife) for some period a couple of years ago, so I can understand a bit of the needs there from a first hand experience. While I've also talked a lot with people who focus completely in action genres and have tried both non-stacked sensor cameras and also stacked sensor cameras to know how big is the jump there.

Hell, the R6ii can be an upgrade over the R5 for a lot of people, even being the cheaper camera.

David_B said:
Either rolling shutter problems never happened before EOS-R or people developed skills and methods such that the problem was eliminated.
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Nobody was shooting electronic shutter with DSLRs, there is no point when there is a mirror assembly in front of the sensor. Rolling shutter numbers are only important for using ES, when you are using the mechanical shutter (which includes EFCS), your rolling shutter is what the mechanism is capable, which has been around 3~4 ms for decades. The fastest non-stacked FF sensor camera (R6ii) can do 14 ms (with an image quality impact), that's still at least 3 times what mechanical shutters are capable of. The entire point of using stacked sensor cameras is to use the electronic shutter whenever you are shooting action.
 
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#126
David_B said:
Either rolling shutter problems never happened before EOS-R or people developed skills and methods such that the problem was eliminated.
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People weren't using fully electronic shutters on their DSLRs. Some models allowed it when shooting in live-view, but it produced fun-house mirror style pictures due to the, you guessed it: rolling shutter.

If you go back to the digital cameras in the 1990s, you'll notice rolling shutter artefacts as well, but back then the wonder of not needing film forgave a lot of issues. I have fond memories of using a borrowed digital camera to document the lab setup at uni in the very early 2000s, especially the spinning windmeter. If we used a hairdryer to make it spin, the camera turned the spokes into a Picasso painting :)

If you're using one of both of the shutter curtains, rolling shutter doesn't affect you, unless you shoot things like high speed props at high shutter speeds.
 
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#127
dougsv said:
Nobody was shooting electronic shutter with DSLRs, there is no point when there is a mirror assembly in front of the sensor. Rolling shutter numbers are only important for using ES, when you are using the mechanical shutter (which includes EFCS), your rolling shutter is what the mechanism is capable, which has been around 3~4 ms for decades. The fastest non-stacked FF sensor camera (R6ii) can do 14 ms (with an image quality impact), that's still at least 3 times what mechanical shutters are capable of. The entire point of using stacked sensor cameras is to use the electronic shutter whenever you are shooting action.
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Rolling shutter impacts all digital cameras unless the sensor supports a global shutter feature. Electronic shutter use on Canon goes back at least far back as the 5D Mark II, if not further.
 
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#128
koenkooi said:
If you're using one of both of the shutter curtains, rolling shutter doesn't affect you, unless you shoot things like high speed props at high shutter speeds.
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Exactly. For birding I will happily accept rolling shutter artifacts if it means I can blast away at 20 fps and not worry about missing the action or wearing out my mechanical shutter.
 
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#129
koenkooi said:
People weren't using fully electronic shutters on their DSLRs. Some models allowed it when shooting in live-view, but it produced fun-house mirror style pictures due to the, you guessed it: rolling shutter.
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Rolling shutter also impacts film photography. The reason you don't see it in movies is because the people shooting the movies know what they're doing and set everything up so you don't see it, they're not kids on youtube going "geee mum, look at that!" for likes.
 
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#130
David_B said:
Rolling shutter impacts all digital cameras unless the sensor supports a global shutter feature. Electronic shutter use on Canon goes back at least far back as the 5D Mark II, if not further.
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Electronic shutter does not work together with a mirror assembly (the sensor cannot be blocked), so it is impossible to shoot ES with a DSLR while using the OVF, the way most people shooting action photography use their cameras. As I mentioned in the same comment you quoted, MS rolling shutter is about 3~4 ms, which is considerably less noticeable than the 14 ms that we have with the R6ii for very fast action. Having a stacked sensor allows you to get to MS levels of rolling shutter while taking advantage of ES: lagfree EVF, silent shooting, high frame rates (the fastest MS we ever saw in a FF camera is capable of doing up to 20 fps, meanwhile the R3 can reach 195 fps using the ES).
 
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#131
David_B said:
All of that technology makes for an almost undetectable difference in the image, with it better at some ISOs and worse at others.
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This is a joke, right?
Let me just say that I've been praying for years for a R6 with a stacked sensor, and I've said so here, in this forum, several times.

ironfreak said:
No, that's not what i mean. R6II series and R5 series don't just separate resolution wise, right? There's a lot more you get in R5 than only just resolution such as the EVF, bigger screen, video specs, etc. For the all type shooter, in business of photography, megapixels and price of camera do matter. Like in 6D (20mp to 6DII - 26 MP) it was welcomed. Expecting a little more resolution than 24 MP from Canon is not crime. Its not that they have not done it before. The first ff R was 30 MP.
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Yes, of course there's a lot more, and there's also a significant difference on the price tag, which overall translates into a higher grade device.
The EOS R had a 30MP sensor that was reused from the 5D Mark IV, as we all know, and that sensor is known not to be the best detail-resolving sensor Canon made. The 26MP 6D Mark II outresolved it, and the new 24MP sensors do that as well. That camera was also their way of introducing the RF mount. By making the 5D Mark IV's sensor available for a lower price, they could instigate buyers to go mirrorless, but that camera was never meant to start a new series — hence its name.

Could Canon make something like a R6S? They could, but think about it, why would they want to do so? The R6 is their entry-level professional mirrorless camera and, prior to 2020, the 6-series cameras weren't even considered professional bodies. The 6D wasn't targetted at working professionals, but serious amateurs.
Canon doesn't want you to buy a R6 as much as they want to sell you a R5. If they made a R6S, why would any photographer buy a R5? They wouldn't.
If you buy the entry-level model, there must be something for you to crave for. We know Canon chose speed over resolution with the R6-series, so speed is what you get, but you don't get the high resolution.
For instance, the Sony a7 IV features extra resolution, but lacks the speed (6/10fps vs 12/40).
Considering that R6 seems to be the baby-1D/baby-R3, I wouldn't expect a resolution increase for as long as the R3 and R1 keep using 24MP sensors.
 
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#132
David_B said:
Rolling shutter impacts all digital cameras unless the sensor supports a global shutter feature. Electronic shutter use on Canon goes back at least far back as the 5D Mark II, if not further.
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The slow readout of the electronic shutter on a non-stacked sensor doesn’t matter when there is no light hitting the sensor after the mechanical shutter ends the exposure.

I hope you’re just trolling and not actually that dense.
 
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#133
Rocco Germani said:
It sounds good but from a logistical standpoint it is a nightmare. Shooting 8K even in 8 bit leads to massive file sizes, which increase exponentially if you shoot in 10 bit or 12 bit in the case of the R5II or R5C. Then you need to store all those files somewhere, and need to edit them. That requires you to have a fast and large SSD, and a powerful computer. I fill up 8TB per year on average with my combined photo/video projects. I can't imagine quadrupling the file sizes for the video files. A total nightmare. All that for it to be watched in 1080p on YouTube or Instagram Reels. 6K is the highest I'd ever see myself using and even then I wouldn't use it all the time.
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8K video in the first line increases your CO2 footprint massively! No joke, the established Si based processors transform about 90 % of the energy they consume directly into heat, only 10 % roughly goes into data processing. That's a real problem because we still live in the age of classic von Neumann-Zuse computers (I know what I am talking about, I once graduated in solid state & semiconductor physics). It could be only solved with future neuromorphic computer architectures, but those still are in the state of fundamental research. Plus, the electronics industry is extremely conservative, driven by high investments that every new production line requires. So, they are slow on disruptive tech leaps.
 
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#134
Ryrock77 said:
I don't know if the R6III can handle the current R3 sensor. Have you compared the R3 6K RAW to the Komodo RAW image. I've seen your Komodo test and they are great. The R3 6K RAW video is almost an exact match to the Komodo Red Raw image. but has AF tracking and lens stabilization. I know it's a sport photography camera but that stacked back illuminated sensor seems lift the shadows and has the same highlight roll-off as the Komodo.
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I mostly shoot stills, so I did not, I am currently not interested in shooting 6k video, 4k is good enough for my purposes. But according to the rumored specs here it looks like the MkIII gets a version of the stacked R3 sensor - but, of course, it's a rumor!
 
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#135
neuroanatomist said:
The slow readout of the electronic shutter on a non-stacked sensor doesn’t matter when there is no light hitting the sensor after the mechanical shutter ends the exposure.
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"Rolling shutter" is a problem that can result from any motion that is quick enough relative to the speed of the shutter & sensor. The only solution is "global shutter" (which is not possible with a mechanical shutter.)

I wonder if people are conflating two different problems - rolling shutter with sensor based readout delays. Calling the sensor based problem "rolling shutter" is not accurate.
 
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#136
dougsv said:
Electronic shutter does not work together with a mirror assembly (the sensor cannot be blocked), so it is impossible to shoot ES with a DSLR while using the OVF, the way most people shooting action photography use their cameras.
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I would encourage you to read up on the 5D Mark II and its possible shooting modes. Just because ES on DSLRs is incompatible with the OVF doesn't mean the feature isn't supported or can't be used.
 
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#138
dougsv said:
I would encourage you to read the comment you are replying to.
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I did and there was nothing in it that showed an understanding of how many cameras have an ES. It is as if it didn't exist before MILCs.

If rolling shutter is a curse you can't live with then buy a Sony A9 III - it has a global shutter and therefore is not impacted by any readout delays in sensors or due to shutter movement/scanning. It might even be the only camera with a global shutter (unless Google is hiding something from me...)

If you want Canon, you're going to be waiting a while...
petapixel.com

Canon Expands Its Full-Frame Global Shutter Sensor Lineup

Will a future Canon EOS R camera sport a global shutter sensor?
petapixel.com petapixel.com
... although with all of the complaints here about ES and RS, maybe Canon should put that 19MP sensor in the R6-III and make all of you happy?
 
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#139
David_B said:
I did and there was nothing in it that showed an understanding of how many cameras have an ES. It is as if it didn't exist before MILCs.
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Holy molly.

dougsv said:
Electronic shutter does not work together with a mirror assembly (the sensor cannot be blocked), so it is impossible to shoot ES with a DSLR while using the OVF, the way most people shooting action photography use their cameras. As I mentioned in the same comment you quoted, MS rolling shutter is about 3~4 ms, which is considerably less noticeable than the 14 ms that we have with the R6ii for very fast action. Having a stacked sensor allows you to get to MS levels of rolling shutter while taking advantage of ES: lagfree EVF, silent shooting, high frame rates (the fastest MS we ever saw in a FF camera is capable of doing up to 20 fps, meanwhile the R3 can reach 195 fps using the ES).
Click to expand...


David_B said:
"Rolling shutter" is a problem that can result from any motion that is quick enough relative to the speed of the shutter & sensor. The only solution is "global shutter" (which is not possible with a mechanical shutter.)

I wonder if people are conflating two different problems - rolling shutter with sensor based readout delays. Calling the sensor based problem "rolling shutter" is not accurate.
Click to expand...

And there you go. Stacked sensors mean that the electronic shutter of the sensor is faster. If the electronic shutter of the sensor is faster, the rolling shutter artifacts happens only with faster speeds.

All we are saying (it is very basic) is that having a faster electronic shutter makes it more useful for more occasions - as the faster shutter allows us to shoot faster action while being unaffected by rolling shutter artifacts.

It is not that complicated if you actually read what we are posting.

And I am out, this just reminded me why I got away from online camera gear communities.
 
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#140
dougsv said:
And there you go. Stacked sensors mean that the electronic shutter of the sensor is faster. If the electronic shutter of the sensor is faster, the rolling shutter artifacts happens only with faster speeds.
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But unless there is a global shutter, the problem is not resolved, only reduced. Global shutter is the answer, not just "reduced readout delays."

dougsv said:
All we are saying (it is very basic) is that having a faster electronic shutter makes it more useful for more occasions - as the faster shutter allows us to shoot faster action while being unaffected by rolling shutter artifacts.
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A faster ES is just another crutch for those without the necessary skills to remove the problem. If I go back in time 2-4 years, how many complaints will I find on this website about people experiencing rolling shutter?

You can see rolling shutter with almost any device that takes photos/videos and planes with propellers (that are turning on an engine that is active) but conditions apply.

dougsv said:
It is not that complicated if you actually read what we are posting.
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What I am reading is a small number of people complaining about a "new problem" that technology will solve for them because they don't know how to solve it themselves. If rolling shutter were that disastrous Canon would have it fixed already in the R1.
 
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