Sony to have flagship camera and lens announcement on November 19

#21
Ian K said:
If it truly only has a CFExpress type A card even with version 4 cards, then it would likely only be as fast as Canon’s CFExpress Type B 2.0. The Type B has twice as many lanes as the Type A, negating much of the speed gain from 2.0 to 4.0 specification.
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One of the big beefs I had with Sony's pro lineup (aside from weatherproofing and ergonomics/interface) was the insistence that they stick with the Type A CFexpress card standard. Once you hit the end of the buffer, it's death. Like 5 frames per second, where the R5 Mark I was 10 frames per second at the end of buffer with a fast CFexpress Type B card.

Was hoping that the R1 at least would have bowed with the version 4 of Type B, which would have lead to a 20fps post-buffer performance or thereabouts. Now that Sony is essentially equalizing the storage throughput (if true), this seems like more of a lost opportunity for Canon. I hold out a small hope that the "unannounced features" hinted at by Canon might be a version 4 CFexpress standard adoption.

Even those people who have it in their hands now might not know that this feature exists, as about no one owns a version 4 card. They could push a firmware build on main production launch.

-tig
 
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#23
[email protected] said:
One of the big beefs I had with Sony's pro lineup (aside from weatherproofing and ergonomics/interface) was the insistence that they stick with the Type A CFexpress card standard. Once you hit the end of the buffer, it's death. Like 5 frames per second, where the R5 Mark I was 10 frames per second at the end of buffer with a fast CFexpress Type B card.

Was hoping that the R1 at least would have bowed with the version 4 of Type B, which would have lead to a 20fps post-buffer performance or thereabouts. Now that Sony is essentially equalizing the storage throughput (if true), this seems like more of a lost opportunity for Canon. I hold out a small hope that the "unannounced features" hinted at by Canon might be a version 4 CFexpress standard adoption.

Even those people who have it in their hands now might not know that this feature exists, as about no one owns a version 4 card. They could push a firmware build on main production launch.

-tig
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We are still waiting for Canon (and Nikon) to be able to process the files fast enough to even max out CFex-B 2.0 cards. Currently they are only just hitting CFex-A 2.0 speeds or slightly faster. CFe-B 4.0 speeds in camera is another generation into the future. Pointless to purchase unless you are buying new cards for a different reason or will benefit from faster download speeds back at the computer.
I thought the R5 and other Canon cameras totally stop firing when the buffer is hit until it clears? Is this incorrect? I keep hearing Jan Wagener mention it in his videos. Watched the latest R1 video yesterday. I've owned the R5 and shot the R3 and R5II but can't recall how it behaves. I used CRAW so didn't run into buffer issues often anyways.
A1 in Compressed RAW (only way to get 30FPS) shoots at ~13-15FPS when buffer is full. Not 5FPS.
 
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#24
Ian K said:
If it truly only has a CFExpress type A card even with version 4 cards, then it would likely only be as fast as Canon’s CFExpress Type B 2.0. The Type B has twice as many lanes as the Type A, negating much of the speed gain from 2.0 to 4.0 specification.
Click to expand...
See my post above for more but you are correct. 4.0 type A is same as 2.0 type B. But so far Canon and Nikon have only managed to process files in camera fast enough to get ~ half of 2.0 type B speeds when actually writing to the card. That is the same as maxed out 2.0 Type A. Therefore a lot more progress needs to happen in the data pipeline prior to writing to the cards for any of these new specifications to matter. Sony has pretty much maxed out the 2.0 Type A so they likely could gain something from 4.0 Type A but even then I'm not sure if they will gain much. I actually don't think the A1II will support 4.0 Type A as Sony likes to just reuse parts so will keep the same 2.0 Type A/ SD combo/dual slot module.
 
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#25
arbitrage said:
We are still waiting for Canon (and Nikon) to be able to process the files fast enough to even max out CFex-B 2.0 cards. Currently they are only just hitting CFex-A 2.0 speeds or slightly faster. CFe-B 4.0 speeds in camera is another generation into the future. Pointless to purchase unless you are buying new cards for a different reason or will benefit from faster download speeds back at the computer.
I thought the R5 and other Canon cameras totally stop firing when the buffer is hit until it clears? Is this incorrect? I keep hearing Jan Wagener mention it in his videos. Watched the latest R1 video yesterday. I've owned the R5 and shot the R3 and R5II but can't recall how it behaves. I used CRAW so didn't run into buffer issues often anyways.
A1 in Compressed RAW (only way to get 30FPS) shoots at ~13-15FPS when buffer is full. Not 5FPS.
Click to expand...
It doesn’t totally stop, it stops shootings for a few seconds, does a burst at full fps, stops shootings for a few seconds, repeat.

If you stop shooting when the buffer hits zero, it will lock you out, though.

I haven’t seen anyone report more than 600 mbyte/s for the R5II, so my CFe 4 cards are purely for making offload faster.
 
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#26
arbitrage said:
We are still waiting for Canon (and Nikon) to be able to process the files fast enough to even max out CFex-B 2.0 cards. Currently they are only just hitting CFex-A 2.0 speeds or slightly faster. CFe-B 4.0 speeds in camera is another generation into the future. Pointless to purchase unless you are buying new cards for a different reason or will benefit from faster download speeds back at the computer.
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It isn't clear to me if the reason why Canon etc don't max out the speeds is due to excessive heat being generated. When downloading at full speed to my PC, the heat/temperature is huge!
 
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#27
koenkooi said:
It doesn’t totally stop, it stops shootings for a few seconds, does a burst at full fps, stops shootings for a few seconds, repeat.
If you stop shooting when the buffer hits zero, it will lock you out, though.
I haven’t seen anyone report more than 600 mbyte/s for the R5II, so my CFe 4 cards are purely for making offload faster.
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The R5's max bandwidth for 8k30 raw is 2600Mbps (325MB/s) which is higher than USHii cards hence the original need for CFe B cards. The A1 didn't need it as it doesn't record 8k raw.
The R5ii's advanced user guide has the same 2600Mbps for 8k60 raw light. So that's the continuous write speed and that's well within the max write bandwidth of CFe cards (let alone v4)
Clearing the buffer could be different with TDP measuring 10-14s to clear the buffer depending on the card which is a lot of time and shots.
 
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#28
arbitrage said:
We are still waiting for Canon (and Nikon) to be able to process the files fast enough to even max out CFex-B 2.0 cards. Currently they are only just hitting CFex-A 2.0 speeds or slightly faster. CFe-B 4.0 speeds in camera is another generation into the future. Pointless to purchase unless you are buying new cards for a different reason or will benefit from faster download speeds back at the computer.
I thought the R5 and other Canon cameras totally stop firing when the buffer is hit until it clears? Is this incorrect? I keep hearing Jan Wagener mention it in his videos. Watched the latest R1 video yesterday. I've owned the R5 and shot the R3 and R5II but can't recall how it behaves. I used CRAW so didn't run into buffer issues often anyways.
A1 in Compressed RAW (only way to get 30FPS) shoots at ~13-15FPS when buffer is full. Not 5FPS.
Click to expand...
My extensive tests of a couple dozen different CFexpress type b cards was that the R5 did not stop firing once it exhausted buffer, but rather keeps firing as memory becomes available as the card ingests from buffer. Different cards free up different sized blocks of memory in this process, making some go into a fairly consistent, slower FPS pace, with other cards being much more syncopated and unpredictable. For instance, you might have another 4-6 shots go through at 20 FPS and then it waits three seconds, and you get another 4 shots, etc. They all average about the same FPS post-buffer-filling (around 9 FPS), but some do this consistently, and others do it in annoying chunks.
 
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#29
Anon said:
I think the A1 series is the "do-it-all" flagship, while the A9 is the speedster at the cost of limited DR at base ISO.
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Sony and Nikon define "flagship" as do-it-all as, to be honest, did Canon years back.
Canon defines their sports-optimized pro body as "flagship"

The Sony α 1 II, Canon EOS R5 Mark II, Nikon Z 8 and Nikon Z 9 are do-it-all pro bodies.
The Sony α 9 III and Canon EOS R1 are sports-optimized pro bodies.
 
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#30
MikeGalos said:
Sony and Nikon define "flagship" as do-it-all as, to be honest, did Canon years back.
The Sony α 1 II and Nikon Z 8 and Z 9 are do-it-all as is the Canon EOS R5 Mark II.
The Sony α 9 III and Canon EOS R1 are optimized sports pro bodies. Canon chooses that now as "flagship".
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The 1-series has been Canon's flagship since film days. In DSLR days, Canon initially had two flagships – the 1Ds series with a higher resolution FF sensor and the 1D series with a lower resolution APS-H sensor and a much faster frame rate. They were thought of as 'studio' vs action flagships. With the 1D X, they unified the two lines because they could finally get a sufficient frame rate with a FF sensor (the 1D X had the same 10 fps as the APS-H 1D IV), and the 18 MP of that sensor was not significantly different from the 21/22 MP sensors in the 1DsIII/5DIII of the time.

What changed is that Canon chose to increase the MP count of the 5-series and not the 1-series. It seems you choose to define 'do-it-all' as 'having the most MP', and if that works for you as a personal definition, well and good. Just know that not everyone defines it that way.

The 'flagship' is a designation each manufacturer gives to their top-of-the-line product. Period. Not all manufacturers will define 'top-of-the-line' in the same way, and customers don't get to define it for them. The only choice we have is whether or not to buy it.
 
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#31
neuroanatomist said:
The 1-series has been Canon's flagship since film days. In DSLR days, Canon initially had two flagships – the 1Ds series with a higher resolution FF sensor and the 1D series with a lower resolution APS-H sensor and a much faster frame rate.
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I was talking earlier than the split to two flagships.

The Canon F-1 was a do-it-all "flagship" where the Canon F-1 High Speed Motor Drive Camera was a specialty sports body.

Of course, as I pointed out (with tongue firmly in cheek) as a response to the "1-series = flagship" naming, that would mean:
Canon F-1 = flagship
Canon A-1 = flagship
Canon AE-1 = flagship
Canon AV-1 = flagship
Canon AL-1 = flagship
Canon EOS-1 = flagship
Canon EOS R1 not a flagship since it does not use "Canon <series name>-1" nomenclature
Canon R-1 would be the flagship but we're still waiting for it.
 
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#32
David - Sydney said:
It isn't clear to me if the reason why Canon etc don't max out the speeds is due to excessive heat being generated.
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To me, that could be the reason why we don't get closer to the actual throughput of CFe 2.0. "DAVISION" (German Youtuber) compared CFe cards (MLC vs pSLC ?? - not 100% sure) and how they impact R5m2 overheating in video mode, with codecs / formats that don't tax the sensor that much. Besides 8K and 4K120P, the pSLC cards would last 20% - 30% longer before the camera would shut down.

Not sure if CFe 4.0 cards will show better thermal behavior or things get even worse.
 
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