Canon releases a full frame 19MP Global shutter sensor to Market

#2
I'm excited by "Filter Type: RGBIR" as a kind of filter... is that RGB+infrared?

Many have been saying "we don't need more than 20-25MP" and yet the 45MP sensors have absolutely acceptable sensitivity, noise and dynamic range for many shooters and most shooting.

Back in the 90s, I had the idea for a filter that instead of the traditional R/G/G/B 2x2 checkerboard (with double green channel as it's most important to human vision so the biggest payoff when it's lower noise), that R/B/B/G would make more sense as it'd get you double blue sensitivity in the lowest light, where blue is usually the weakest and where lower noise would most matter.

I also thought a larger checkerboard with 2-3 IR channels would make sense. The camera could then shoot as color infrared or have a choice of channels for B&W infrared. Perhaps each pixel could be a 3x3 checkerboard with 2xR, 2xG, 2xB, then one each of the IR frequencies.

I also though an unfiltered (and thus very substantially better sensitivity) White channel that would have an out-sized role to play in setting pixel brightness. I think the color filter probably rejects 80% of the light coming to the sensor or something, so if so, a R/G/B/White 2x2 filter array would give about twice the total brightness information of a four-filter array.

Finally while on the subject, you could also expand the number of primaries significantly. An 8-primary system would be able to capture 99% of the colors humans can see vs. the current 40% or something (though to be fair the current RGB standard still captures a large majority of the colors we actually see in the world around us; the other colors are rare outside of rainbows, glints in gemstones and so on, but still, there has to be SOME market for a camera that can capture a far greater range of visible color...)
 
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#3
Have you shot with the Sony A9III? I ended up purchasing one after reading the CineD lab test. I wanted to prove just how bad the DR on the Sony was. I compared it to a number of cameras… the Fujifilm XH2S and GFX100 II, a Canon Eos R3 and my Red Komodo 6K. I went into this test expecting the Sony to finish in last place… it didn’t.

Dynamic range is an interesting thing in that there are a couple different ways it can be quantified. We often see test performed on a Xyla21 chart. Many take those test to be essentially gospel. But in truth the Xyla21 test is easy to fool with noise reduction. So the results you get may not reflect real world dynamic range.

Consider the iPhone 15 Pro Max. The website CineD lab test section reveals that the iPhone scores a seemingly remarkable 13.4 stops of dynamic range. To put this in perspective, this is the exact same score as the Alexa Mini LF shooting in ARRIRAW.

Anyone that owns the iPhone knows that the footage falls apart readily in post. There is little to no room to adjust shadows or highlights. In essence, if you mess up when shooting… your goose is cooked. The key to this poor “real world” dynamic range performance is Exposure Latitude. Examining the CineD lab results for the iPhone reveals an exposure latitude score of 5. This is not a spectacular score. For reference, the current Canon flagship Eos R3 provides an excellent exposure latitude of 8 stops; while the Canon Eos R5C manages a respectable 7 stops. The previously mentioned Alexa LF scores 10 stops. Anyone that has worked with these cameras will have no trouble confirming that these results accurately reflect real world performance.

So what did the Sony A9III score? A solid 9 stops with wiggle room to 10. This score is not only better than every Canon camera ever made… it’s better than every digital camera made with the exception of the Arri cameras. The A9III ties with the $30,000 Red V-Raptor 8K VV and V-Raptor-X… And it does this a 1/10th the power draw.

So back to my personal experience shooting with the Sony A9III. The Sony has the most dynamic range of all of the cameras that I tested. I performed numerous test… at first just to prove that my Canon was superior… then upon seeing the results I successively moved up to cameras I believed would best the Sony. One by one the test results revealed the ugly truth I had refused to see… this dam Sony had better dynamic range than all the cameras I had tested it against. It took me some time to adjust my mind to this reality… in my eagerness to refute the CineD finding, my testing had instead confirmed that the CineD test were correct.

The takeaway is simply this… don’t discount Sony. They are a force to be reckoned with. I sincerely hope that Canon did not hold back with the R1, because the competition is bringing their A-game.
 
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#4
DBounce said:
Have you shot with the Sony A9III? I ended up purchasing one after reading the CineD lab test. I wanted to prove just how bad the DR on the Sony was. I compared it to a number of cameras… the Fujifilm XH2S and GFX100 II, a Canon Eos R3 and my Red Komodo 6K. I went into this test expecting the Sony to finish in last place… it didn’t.

Dynamic range is an interesting thing in that there are a couple different ways it can be quantified. We often see test performed on a Xyla21 chart. Many take those test to be essentially gospel. But in truth the Xyla21 test is easy to fool with noise reduction. So the results you get may not reflect real world dynamic range.

Consider the iPhone 15 Pro Max. The website CineD lab test section reveals that the iPhone scores a seemingly remarkable 13.4 stops of dynamic range. To put this in perspective, this is the exact same score as the Alexa Mini LF shooting in ARRIRAW.

Anyone that owns the iPhone knows that the footage falls apart readily in post. There is little to no room to adjust shadows or highlights. In essence, if you mess up when shooting… your goose is cooked. The key to this poor “real world” dynamic range performance is Exposure Latitude. Examining the CineD lab results for the iPhone reveals an exposure latitude score of 5. This is not a spectacular score. For reference, the current Canon flagship Eos R3 provides an excellent exposure latitude of 8 stops; while the Canon Eos R5C manages a respectable 7 stops. The previously mentioned Alexa LF scores 10 stops. Anyone that has worked with these cameras will have no trouble confirming that these results accurately reflect real world performance.

So what did the Sony A9III score? A solid 9 stops with wiggle room to 10. This score is not only better than every Canon camera ever made… it’s better than every digital camera made with the exception of the Arri cameras. The A9III ties with the $30,000 Red V-Raptor 8K VV and V-Raptor-X… And it does this a 1/10th the power draw.

So back to my personal experience shooting with the Sony A9III. The Sony has the most dynamic range of all of the cameras that I tested. I performed numerous test… at first just to prove that my Canon was superior… then upon seeing the results I successively moved up to cameras I believed would best the Sony. One by one the test results revealed the ugly truth I had refused to see… this dam Sony had better dynamic range than all the cameras I had tested it against. It took me some time to adjust my mind to this reality… in my eagerness to refute the CineD finding, my testing had instead confirmed that the CineD test were correct.

The takeaway is simply this… don’t discount Sony. They are a force to be reckoned with. I sincerely hope that Canon did not hold back with the R1, because the competition is bringing their A-game.
Click to expand...
I have neither the depth of knowledge or skills to replicate much less understand much of what you did with this comparison but I appreciate your dedication and insights. I have been a lifelong Canon user and find myself so heavily invested in glass that whenever I flirt with the idea of a platform change I cringe at the effort to swap out not only bodies but all of my lens and accessory collection as well as learn a new interface. That tax on change is what I am sure keeps most of us in place with our existing platforms.

I have watched Sony over the years and have observed many friends and fellow shooters swap from Nikon or Canon to Sony or newer shooters start out with Sony. I have also watched their innovation initially in sensors, then in bodies and finally in glass as they have caught up and in many ways surpassed competition.

I know this post and my reply will illicit all sorts of hate as Canon bashing, look at the statistics for sales, if you don’t like Canon just switch and be gone, etc., etc. My reply is not meant to stoke that response but to note that as you say, Sony is bringing their A game and Canon better step up. I am more of a landscape shooter with interest in wildlife and what Sony is going with the A7R series and the A9III series is spectacular. Match that with their native lenses and open lens architecture and third party options and they continue to be a compelling platform for my style of shooting. My biggest barriers to entry continue to be existing investment in platform and user interface. That barrier will be tested with what Canon does for the rest of this year as I really would like to see a high MP replacement for the 5DSR and R5 that I currently shoot with as well as a compelling competition to the A9III with better native lens options and an open lens architecture that would convince me to upgrade my aging EF lens lineup (600 F4 II, 11-24 F4, Sigma 14mm f1.8, and a long line of other EF lenses).
 
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#5
DBounce said:
it’s better than every digital camera made with the exception of the Arri cameras. The A9III ties with the $30,000 Red V-Raptor 8K VV and V-Raptor-X… And it does this a 1/10th the power draw.

So back to my personal experience shooting with the Sony A9III. The Sony has the most dynamic range of all of the cameras that I tested.
Click to expand...
This is counter to a ton of reviews out there...
 
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#6
DBounce said:
Have you shot with the Sony A9III? I ended up purchasing one after reading the CineD lab test. I wanted to prove just how bad the DR on the Sony was. I compared it to a number of cameras… the Fujifilm XH2S and GFX100 II, a Canon Eos R3 and my Red Komodo 6K. I went into this test expecting the Sony to finish in last place… it didn’t.

Dynamic range is an interesting thing in that there are a couple different ways it can be quantified. We often see test performed on a Xyla21 chart. Many take those test to be essentially gospel. But in truth the Xyla21 test is easy to fool with noise reduction. So the results you get may not reflect real world dynamic range.

Consider the iPhone 15 Pro Max. The website CineD lab test section reveals that the iPhone scores a seemingly remarkable 13.4 stops of dynamic range. To put this in perspective, this is the exact same score as the Alexa Mini LF shooting in ARRIRAW.

Anyone that owns the iPhone knows that the footage falls apart readily in post. There is little to no room to adjust shadows or highlights. In essence, if you mess up when shooting… your goose is cooked. The key to this poor “real world” dynamic range performance is Exposure Latitude. Examining the CineD lab results for the iPhone reveals an exposure latitude score of 5. This is not a spectacular score. For reference, the current Canon flagship Eos R3 provides an excellent exposure latitude of 8 stops; while the Canon Eos R5C manages a respectable 7 stops. The previously mentioned Alexa LF scores 10 stops. Anyone that has worked with these cameras will have no trouble confirming that these results accurately reflect real world performance.

So what did the Sony A9III score? A solid 9 stops with wiggle room to 10. This score is not only better than every Canon camera ever made… it’s better than every digital camera made with the exception of the Arri cameras. The A9III ties with the $30,000 Red V-Raptor 8K VV and V-Raptor-X… And it does this a 1/10th the power draw.

So back to my personal experience shooting with the Sony A9III. The Sony has the most dynamic range of all of the cameras that I tested. I performed numerous test… at first just to prove that my Canon was superior… then upon seeing the results I successively moved up to cameras I believed would best the Sony. One by one the test results revealed the ugly truth I had refused to see… this dam Sony had better dynamic range than all the cameras I had tested it against. It took me some time to adjust my mind to this reality… in my eagerness to refute the CineD finding, my testing had instead confirmed that the CineD test were correct.

The takeaway is simply this… don’t discount Sony. They are a force to be reckoned with. I sincerely hope that Canon did not hold back with the R1, because the competition is bringing their A-game.
Click to expand...
To testify that you were indeed sceptical in advance, you had posted this:
DBounce said:
Global shutter sounds great and as a Red owner, I’m familiar with the benefits. However, to date only Red has resolved the drawbacks of a global shutter sensor. From the early footage from the Sony A9III, it appears dynamic range took a big hit due to the global shutter. I’m guessing this camera will produce about 10 stops of dynamic range. I’m seeing both crushed blacks and blown highlights. I don’t believe Canon would release such a comprised camera. Frankly, I surprised Sony chose to.
Click to expand...
So, thanks for your appraisal - it's always good to hear direct experience.
 
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#9
AlanF said:
To testify that you were indeed sceptical in advance, you had posted this:

So, thanks for your appraisal - it's always good to hear direct experience.
Click to expand...
It’s common trap we fall into once we are heavily invested in a system. That’s why it’s important to actually have some hands on time. If the product is good enough it will win over even the most stalwart from opposing brands.
 
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#10
dirtyvu said:
This is counter to a ton of reviews out there...
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I can’t speak to that… I only know in the testing I performed back to back with other cameras the Sony performed better than the rest. I purchased each of these cameras with my own money. I don’t run a camera store. There’s zero reason for me to be anything less than genuine.

And to be clear. It’s not just in dynamic range where Sony has taken the lead. The AF in the A9III is the best I’ve ever seen. Nothing currently publicly available even comes close… and I include both Canon and other Sonys in that. The new Dynamic Active Stabilization might rival the best from Panasonic. Even the ergonomics will not leave most Canon users wanting. Sony has been taking notes.

There are currently 4 new Canons on the horizon. Probably the R5 Mk2 and the R1… and two Cinema Eos cameras. I hope Canon takes Sony serious now, and gives us some impressive tech in these models. I have tons of Canon glass. When I purchased the R3, it was a stopgap for the R1, that we all knew was coming… eventually.
So I’ve really been waiting for the R1 since the announcement of the R3. I would love to see some of the amazing tech we read about on this site actually make its way into something we can buy. Maybe, just maybe Sony stepping up their game will motivate Canon to do likewise.
 
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#11
DBounce said:
Maybe, just maybe Sony stepping up their game will motivate Canon to do likewise.
Click to expand...
A big maybe. YouTube (p)reviewers are obsessed with comparing systems because it drives click revenue. In the real world, brand switching is not the norm. Sure, it happens…but not commonly. Or so the data show, despite people’s anecdotes about them or ‘everyone they know’ switching systems.

The takeaway is that Canon’s ‘competition’ mainly comprises their own prior products.
 
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#12
Also for industrial use, but maybe a bit interesting anyway. Canon also released a couple of other sensors. One of them with focus on high dynamic range:
image-sensors-world.blogspot.com

Canon releases LI5030 sensor

Canon’s 2.8 MP LI7060 CMOS sensor is equipped with an HDR drive function that achieves a wide 120 dB range at low noise levels. This wide ...
image-sensors-world.blogspot.com image-sensors-world.blogspot.com
 
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#13
neuroanatomist said:
The takeaway is that Canon’s ‘competition’ mainly comprises their own prior products.
Click to expand...
Success or failure over the long term happens at the margins, gaining or losing customers, sales, and profitability. Especially with these high end products that drive significant additional sales (lenses) small changes in customer count can drive large changes in profitability.
 
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#14
downhill on water said:
Success or failure over the long term happens at the margins, gaining or losing customers, sales, and profitability. Especially with these high end products that drive significant additional sales (lenses) small changes in customer count can drive large changes in profitability.
Click to expand...
That makes sense. The issue I have is when people claim 'Canon must...' or 'Canon is not stepping up their game', or similar comments. The question is, "Or else, what?" Canon's financial reporting indicates that their camera division is profitable, and seeing growth in profits. Sony does not provide data with that level of granularity, so it's impossible to know whether or not their camera division is profitable.

By your metric (which is a very important one), that means Canon is succeeding. Yet people insist they need to 'catch up'.
 
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#15
DBounce said:
Have you shot with the Sony A9III? I ended up purchasing one after reading the CineD lab test. I wanted to prove just how bad the DR on the Sony was. I compared it to a number of cameras… the Fujifilm XH2S and GFX100 II, a Canon Eos R3 and my Red Komodo 6K. I went into this test expecting the Sony to finish in last place… it didn’t.

Dynamic range is an interesting thing in that there are a couple different ways it can be quantified. We often see test performed on a Xyla21 chart. Many take those test to be essentially gospel. But in truth the Xyla21 test is easy to fool with noise reduction. So the results you get may not reflect real world dynamic range.
Click to expand...
Snip.

It sound by your testing and comparisons that you are testing in video. That's entirely different as camera manufacturers have a bazillion tricks up their sleeves, especially with very fast sensors to compensate for the raw sensor itself having poor performance. But you are right, i should have clarified. A very fast sensor that is recording 60fps video can take 3 total images at different exposures at 180 fps and combine them to give the appearance of better dynamic range - a really rough example of course. It's one of the toughest things reading through Canon's "high dr sensor patents" is trying to figure out .. what is actually in electronics and what is actually in post sensor software.

In the stills department - there are not so many tricks. There are some, such as applying NR that can cause the amount of noise to be subjectively lower, but not really the same amount of tricks.

I was talking about stills performance, myself - and in this case, they are even with heavy software noise reduction 1.25EV off of their competitors at low ISO.

But absolutely an extremely fast global shutter sensor can do magic for video.
 
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#16
DBounce said:
Have you shot with the Sony A9III? I ended up purchasing one after reading the CineD lab test. I wanted to prove just how bad the DR on the Sony was. I compared it to a number of cameras… the Fujifilm XH2S and GFX100 II, a Canon Eos R3 and my Red Komodo 6K. I went into this test expecting the Sony to finish in last place… it didn’t.

Dynamic range is an interesting thing in that there are a couple different ways it can be quantified. We often see test performed on a Xyla21 chart. Many take those test to be essentially gospel. But in truth the Xyla21 test is easy to fool with noise reduction. So the results you get may not reflect real world dynamic range.

Consider the iPhone 15 Pro Max. The website CineD lab test section reveals that the iPhone scores a seemingly remarkable 13.4 stops of dynamic range. To put this in perspective, this is the exact same score as the Alexa Mini LF shooting in ARRIRAW.

Anyone that owns the iPhone knows that the footage falls apart readily in post. There is little to no room to adjust shadows or highlights. In essence, if you mess up when shooting… your goose is cooked. The key to this poor “real world” dynamic range performance is Exposure Latitude. Examining the CineD lab results for the iPhone reveals an exposure latitude score of 5. This is not a spectacular score. For reference, the current Canon flagship Eos R3 provides an excellent exposure latitude of 8 stops; while the Canon Eos R5C manages a respectable 7 stops. The previously mentioned Alexa LF scores 10 stops. Anyone that has worked with these cameras will have no trouble confirming that these results accurately reflect real world performance.

So what did the Sony A9III score? A solid 9 stops with wiggle room to 10. This score is not only better than every Canon camera ever made… it’s better than every digital camera made with the exception of the Arri cameras. The A9III ties with the $30,000 Red V-Raptor 8K VV and V-Raptor-X… And it does this a 1/10th the power draw.

So back to my personal experience shooting with the Sony A9III. The Sony has the most dynamic range of all of the cameras that I tested. I performed numerous test… at first just to prove that my Canon was superior… then upon seeing the results I successively moved up to cameras I believed would best the Sony. One by one the test results revealed the ugly truth I had refused to see… this dam Sony had better dynamic range than all the cameras I had tested it against. It took me some time to adjust my mind to this reality… in my eagerness to refute the CineD finding, my testing had instead confirmed that the CineD test were correct.

The takeaway is simply this… don’t discount Sony. They are a force to be reckoned with. I sincerely hope that Canon did not hold back with the R1, because the competition is bringing their A-game.
Click to expand...
Your results are for video, for photos a very different story.
 

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#17
neuroanatomist said:
A big maybe. YouTube (p)reviewers are obsessed with comparing systems because it drives click revenue. In the real world, brand switching is not the norm. Sure, it happens…but not commonly. Or so the data show, despite people’s anecdotes about them or ‘everyone they know’ switching systems.

The takeaway is that Canon’s ‘competition’ mainly comprises their own prior products.
Click to expand...
I shot Canon as my main system in the days of film, and in the DSLR days until 2008. I had a substantial collection of L glass.

When the D700 came out, I sold everything and jumped ship. It was a mini-D3 and had performance far beyond anything Canon had available at the time, or seemed likely to release at a price point (and in a form factor) that I would want. It took a bit of time to re-buy all the glass I had, but got there, and then some. I shot Nikon for a decade.

When it was time to no longer be a working pro, I got curious about mirrorless. Nikon's only options were the original Z6 and the Z7, both of which, to be blunt, sucked. Canon was dipping their toes into RF but there was no R6 or R5.

Sony was mostly a curiosity to me, until I picked up an A7iii and the AF and overall performance rocked my world. Sure, compared to what the A9iii can do today the A7iii is a turd but damn, it was leaps and bounds ahead of anything else on the market back in 2018. The lowlight performance of that 24mp BSI sensor was also very impressive. So I once again sold everything and moved to Sony.

I'm not afraid to move systems. New interfaces don't bother me. The cost is a consideration but I'll pay if it's a big enough improvement in enough ways.

I'd move back to Canon if they leaped far enough ahead of Sony, and if they opened their mount up at least as much as Sony has. Why not? Life is short.
 
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#18
Just a follow-up to my previous post where we see that - for photos - the Sony A9 III is almost 2 stops worse than the Canon R5 in dynamic range at base ISO. Interestingly, the crop sensor R7 is a half stop better than the A9 III at base ISO.
 

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#19
RobbieHat said:
I have neither the depth of knowledge or skills to replicate much less understand much of what you did with this comparison but I appreciate your dedication and insights. I have been a lifelong Canon user and find myself so heavily invested in glass that whenever I flirt with the idea of a platform change I cringe at the effort to swap out not only bodies but all of my lens and accessory collection as well as learn a new interface. That tax on change is what I am sure keeps most of us in place with our existing platforms.

I have watched Sony over the years and have observed many friends and fellow shooters swap from Nikon or Canon to Sony or newer shooters start out with Sony. I have also watched their innovation initially in sensors, then in bodies and finally in glass as they have caught up and in many ways surpassed competition.

I know this post and my reply will illicit all sorts of hate as Canon bashing, look at the statistics for sales, if you don’t like Canon just switch and be gone, etc., etc. My reply is not meant to stoke that response but to note that as you say, Sony is bringing their A game and Canon better step up. I am more of a landscape shooter with interest in wildlife and what Sony is going with the A7R series and the A9III series is spectacular. Match that with their native lenses and open lens architecture and third party options and they continue to be a compelling platform for my style of shooting. My biggest barriers to entry continue to be existing investment in platform and user interface. That barrier will be tested with what Canon does for the rest of this year as I really would like to see a high MP replacement for the 5DSR and R5 that I currently shoot with as well as a compelling competition to the A9III with better native lens options and an open lens architecture that would convince me to upgrade my aging EF lens lineup (600 F4 II, 11-24 F4, Sigma 14mm f1.8, and a long line of other EF lenses).
Click to expand...
Agreeing with both of these points. All I have to add is that, in the cinema world, it's practically shameful that Canon does not yet have an RF cinema body with professional I/O options for larger productions while RED has 5, and Sony has their mirrorless e-mount available on their entire cinema range — including CineAlta. Canon's strategy is so strange here. With flawless EF-mount adaptation possible, they should have (at the very least) introduced the C300 III and C500 II with the RF mount on-board. They are painfully slow to catch up.

THAT BEING SAID, they did very well catching up to the game with the R5 and I suspect it will be a similar tale when they do finally release higher-end cinema cams.
 
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#20
DBounce said:
Have you shot with the Sony A9III? I ended up purchasing one after reading the CineD lab test. I wanted to prove just how bad the DR on the Sony was. I compared it to a number of cameras… the Fujifilm XH2S and GFX100 II, a Canon Eos R3 and my Red Komodo 6K. I went into this test expecting the Sony to finish in last place… it didn’t.

Dynamic range is an interesting thing in that there are a couple different ways it can be quantified. We often see test performed on a Xyla21 chart. Many take those test to be essentially gospel. But in truth the Xyla21 test is easy to fool with noise reduction. So the results you get may not reflect real world dynamic range.

Consider the iPhone 15 Pro Max. The website CineD lab test section reveals that the iPhone scores a seemingly remarkable 13.4 stops of dynamic range. To put this in perspective, this is the exact same score as the Alexa Mini LF shooting in ARRIRAW.

Anyone that owns the iPhone knows that the footage falls apart readily in post. There is little to no room to adjust shadows or highlights. In essence, if you mess up when shooting… your goose is cooked. The key to this poor “real world” dynamic range performance is Exposure Latitude. Examining the CineD lab results for the iPhone reveals an exposure latitude score of 5. This is not a spectacular score. For reference, the current Canon flagship Eos R3 provides an excellent exposure latitude of 8 stops; while the Canon Eos R5C manages a respectable 7 stops. The previously mentioned Alexa LF scores 10 stops. Anyone that has worked with these cameras will have no trouble confirming that these results accurately reflect real world performance.

So what did the Sony A9III score? A solid 9 stops with wiggle room to 10. This score is not only better than every Canon camera ever made… it’s better than every digital camera made with the exception of the Arri cameras. The A9III ties with the $30,000 Red V-Raptor 8K VV and V-Raptor-X… And it does this a 1/10th the power draw.

So back to my personal experience shooting with the Sony A9III. The Sony has the most dynamic range of all of the cameras that I tested. I performed numerous test… at first just to prove that my Canon was superior… then upon seeing the results I successively moved up to cameras I believed would best the Sony. One by one the test results revealed the ugly truth I had refused to see… this dam Sony had better dynamic range than all the cameras I had tested it against. It took me some time to adjust my mind to this reality… in my eagerness to refute the CineD finding, my testing had instead confirmed that the CineD test were correct.

The takeaway is simply this… don’t discount Sony. They are a force to be reckoned with. I sincerely hope that Canon did not hold back with the R1, because the competition is bringing their A-game.
Click to expand...
I've downloaded R3 samples and a9iii samples, it's not even close, completely disagree with you. As so many other reviews I've seen as well. What on earth are you talking about?
 
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